Questioning Partner's Call

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call. So my willingness to approach my partner was an attempt to assuage the situation

If there is a situation where you need to give your partner some information, this needs to happen before the coach gets mad, not as a result of it.

[rockyroad]

So let me see if I have this all down correctly...

-You went to partner with info on a disputed call

-partner took offense to your coming to him

-you apologized to him at the game site

-he sent you a bitchy email in which he tries hard to find a rule book backing for his bitchiness

-you want our advice on how to deal with this situation

Is that about it???

If so, my advice would be to ask you a question...why, why, why would you want this guy working any game you assign?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from and I did not give the whole story as the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call. So my willingness to approach my partner was an attempt to assuage the situation and I gave my partner an out by asking him whether the player gained possession with one hand before going into the backcourt where he caught it with two hands. edit: I did not overrule him.

Honestly, IMHO... this added information makes it worse. The fact that coach was barking at him when you decided to add information unsolicited... I can kind of see his ire coming up for that. If he ASKS you for information, that's different. But don't pile on when coach is on him already.

As to what to do now ... I'd be with the herd. Apologize (and I DO think you owe him one ... it's not just taking the high road now), and move on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Honestly, IMHO... this added information makes it worse. The fact that coach was barking at him when you decided to add information unsolicited... I can kind of see his ire coming up for that. If he ASKS you for information, that's different. But don't pile on when coach is on him already.

As to what to do now ... I'd be with the herd. Apologize (and I DO think you owe him one ... it's not just taking the high road now), and move on.

I disagree. If he's kicking a rule and you know it, you're just as wrong for letting him kick it as he is for kicking it. You're not overruling or even questioning his judgement. Now, if you're questioning his judgement, that is wrong...but that isn't what we're talking about here. If he says the player controlled it in the front court, the call stands. If he says he only tipped it, then let him know what the rule is and that, by rule, it can't be a violation and leave it to him to take it from there.

I did exactly this a couple years ago with a partner who is probably in the top 2-3 in our association. Throwin on my frontcourt endline is tipped around the FT line (no where near control) and it went into the backcourt where the offense gets the ball. He called a backcourt violation. You can bet I went out to him. He was happy to fix it once I told him that we couldn't have a backcourt violation unless he judged that tip to be player control.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...
I did exactly this a couple years ago with a partner who is probably in the top 2-3 in our association. Throwin on my frontcourt endline is tipped around the FT line (no where near control) and it went into the backcourt where the offense gets the ball. He called a backcourt violation. You can bet I went out to him. He was happy to fix it once I told him that we couldn't have a backcourt violation unless he judged that tip to be player control.

Difference being in your case you had definite knowledge. In the OP, he "thought" player didn't have control and he was about 40' from the play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree.

There's a HUGE difference between your play, where you're certain the other official made a rule error... and the OP where he thought that perhaps maybe the other official might be mistaken in judgement.

And to do it right after the coach started chewing strips away any semblance of credibility he could possibly have for the rest of that game, perhaps longer should he see this coach in the future. Don't neuter your partner.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from and I did not give the whole story as the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call.

Honestly, responding to the coach's tirade in this manner is only going to inflame the situation. Now, he's more likely to throw a fit later. He also sees your response as disagreement with your partner's call. Your partner also feels like you betrayed him.

Now, your partner's rule quote is irrelevant, but I think his overall point is valid.

[JRutledge]

The rule reference may or may not have anything to do with the actual rule situation you experienced. But when you go to a partner, give them information, do not ask a question. If you know that the player did not have control of the ball and that was in your primary, then give that information and let him tell you there were other factors to the call. If you are not sure, then keep your mouth shut. A lot of times we "think" things and we do not have the entire story. I know the goal is to get it right, but there is a way to do it.

Now with the childish mail, I probably would not have responded. I probably would have had a phone conversation. Emails have ways of getting off the rails, especially with a newer official.

I am also not so sure about not working with this guy again. Just have a good pregame and discuss how you handle situations where you can help each other. Because if you say you do not want to work with this person, it is going to end up with the email exchange and the assignor asking, "What is with this?" We all work with people that we are not in love with and this would be no different. Do your job, be professional and move on.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You should wait until after the game (or halftime) and ask your partner what he had on that play.

Good advice. If you really want to correct a mistake while the game is going on, a good question to ask him would be, "Did you get a good look at that?" It's more of an open ended type question that lacks any specific details, and is less critical. If he answers, "Yes", then just move on, and maybe bring it up at halftime, or after the game. If he says, "No", or, "What did you have?", then give him the specifics and let him make the call, and live, or die, with it.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being in your case you had definite knowledge. In the OP, he "thought" player didn't have control and he was about 40' from the play.

Whoa, hold on, let's get the facts straight. The only reason why I said "I thought" is that I always leave room for doubt. That was my personal position. And that doubt was maybe that my partner saw that the player gained possession of the ball in the front court before catching it when stepping in the backcourt. I did specify in this thread on how I saw the play, in that the player touched the ball in the front court but caught the ball with both hands in the backcourt. And given that, I allowed my partner an out by asking him if the player gained possession of the ball with one hand, so even if I had absolute 100% knowledge that he was wrong, and I had the willingness to approach him, I would do it the same way, by asking him whether the player gained control of the ball in the front court.

What other way would you have addressed the situation when the coach is immediately asking you to confer with your partner when we all know that is what we're supposed to do? I wasn't going to tell the coach no I'm not going to ask him about the call, live with it coach.

And I don't understand why so many here are so antithetical to making sure we get the call right as a crew?

Secondly, why are still focused on this. I later said in this thread that I apologized to my partner for approaching him in the first place given that he took it personally, which as I've understood shouldn't even be an excuse as we're supposed to leave our egos at the door when we enter the gym.

My intention for this thread is how to approach situations where I can better present my considerations. I never asked how to overrule a partner as I would never intend to do that. And being an experienced official, I know there are times where I may come across as condescending, especially with newer officials. Hence my thread here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

What other way would you have addressed the situation when the coach is immediately asking you to confer with your partner when we all know that is what we're supposed to do? I wasn't going to tell the coach no I'm not going to ask him about the call, live with it coach.

And herein lies the problem.

If you've been officiating for any length of time at all (and I'm assuming you have - you are also an assignor), you know better. Any sport (perhaps other than football, where this gets relegated to the R). If the coach has a problem with a call, he needs to address it with the official who made the call. If the coach, as you say, asked you to confer, a good official would direct him to the other official. If your partner wants to confer, do so.

If you're going to stop down the game to discuss calls every time a coach asks you to confer with your partner on a call your partner made, you're in for a long long game (and your partner's credibility is toast).

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

And herein lies the problem.

If you've been officiating for any length of time at all (and I'm assuming you have - you are also an assignor), you know better. Any sport (perhaps other than football, where this gets relegated to the R). If the coach has a problem with a call, he needs to address it with the official who made the call. If the coach, as you say, asked you to confer, a good official would direct him to the other official. If your partner wants to confer, do so.

If you're going to stop down the game to discuss calls every time a coach asks you to confer with your partner on a call your partner made, you're in for a long long game (and your partner's credibility is toast).

It took less than ten seconds for me to go up to him and ask him a simple question of whether the player gained possession in the front court or the backcourt, and after he answered I left it as that (even as he answered it with disdain) and I then directed the other team to throw in the ball at halfcourt. It's the partner's response and his veiled attempt to pin me down with the rulebook that is at issue here.

Personally, there are many times where I made an incorrect "out-of-bounds" call where my partner came up to me and asked if I saw it go off of 'so-and-so.' I can point to the many times with college and pro officials conferred with one another on a call. So if you're saying that as officials we should confer only when the calling official asks to confer then I would disagree. But I would only do it at rare times during the game where my partner might be kicking the rule, still though with no intention of overruling my partner.

So I guess before going further we must ask the question of how willing you are at maintaining the integrity of the game? If you believe that each individual's primary is solely to be judged by the official responsible then I guess we'll have to disagree on principle and leave it as that which means my followup question of how to approach your partner on certain calls would be moot.

[Adam]

"Coach, you'll have to ask him what he saw next chance you get."

IOW, I absolutely would tell him I'm not going to confer with my partner.

Where were you when the call was made? Where was the ball touched in the FC?

The answers to these questions will dictate the answer to "how" to approach your partner.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

He then said that how could I have seen it better as Lead when he was on top of it as Trail.

Why would the lead have a better look at a backcourt call? That isn't yours. If you're watching his and he is watching his, who's watching yours?

[Afrosheen]

It seems to me that you guys are all focusing on this specific play way too much and using words and clichés to sway the argument to your own biased point of view before even considering the play. As a 10 year official, it should be expected that your peripheral vision is at use, and that just because it's your secondary it doesn't prohibit you from taking action on a particular play.

So let me be real specific in regards to the play just to entertain this discussion, which really isn't the main point of the this read. And then I'll address each of the individual points thereafter.

First off, this was an AAU/club team fall league tournament. So the games kind of mattered for these guys. And as an assignor for the region these teams pretty much know me by now. But having said that I'm an assignor doesn't mean that I know better on all plays, so I'm here to learn as well.

Secondly, it was the first play out of a timeout. As Lead, I decided to play up as this defense likes to apply pressure and my partner has a reluctance at hustling and standing strong side on the sideline wouldn't look good. So if you were to draw this up in your head I was standing a little bit lower than where a Center would usually be standing opposite the Trail. If this was a Varsity game, I would have been standing below the baseline, strong-side. But given the type of game and my partner, I decided it would be prudent to stand table-side and start off the play as a pseudo-center.

The coach was standing a few feet up along the same sideline I was, around the 28' line on the same half I was standing.

Before the play resumed the defense was already up, one matchup was below the line from where I was standing. The offensive player or really the point guard needed to gain separation from his defender so he juked towards the basket and then backed up. As he backed up the pass was made as the defender was still recovering. The point guard's feet when he touched the ball was in the front court, but he definitely did not grab the ball with two hands until he was in the backcourt. Only the coach understood this as everyone thought that since the player was in the frontcourt where he initially touched the ball that even though he was in the backcourt when he caught it, it wasn't a backcourt violation.

Now if you've watched basketball enough, the play that I saw is easy to imagine. And since this was a youth level game there wasn't much in my area to watch coming out of a timeout. The point guard tried to get position with his arm outstretched as the target, but his teammate wasn't confident in passing it to him. So the PG decides to make a juke towards the basket but then back up to create space as the defender recovers. Now the PG as he backed up got the pass with his right hand but never caught it until going into the backcourt. The way he caught it was that he was backing up but when he touched the ball he turned his back to protect the ball. So imagining all that would be a quick jab towards the defender and the basket, sidestep back and essentially face your teammate who's throwing in the ball, touch the ball with one hand, turn your back to protect the ball as you catch it.

Standing where the Center usually stands made it easy to see this as the play was pretty much within my vision. The unfortunate part was how the play ended.

The way I saw it was that the offensive player touched the ball with his right hand as he approached the division line with his left foot in the frontcourt as he stepped his right foot in the backcourt, so when he lifted his left foot it looked like it was a backcourt violation, but his right foot was there in the backcourt before he possessed it. That right foot was clear as day as it was used to turn towards the basket and towards me and the coach.

The reason why I admitted to my doubt in this thread was because I thought you all would be able to understand this situation where you're never sure of a call in the absolute sense and when it comes to a call your partner made you always give your partner the benefit of the doubt. Instead I'm feeling like you guys want me to be wrong here so you load up your statements to make appear to be so even though you making it up along the way.

So when I went up to him, I already had the two scenarios in my mind. The coach was the only other person who made it evident that he knew the rule coupled with a plain view from his position, and since this is an AAU game in an empty gym his voice carried and it was clear everyone heard him say "he didn't gain possession until he was in the backcourt." To let such a play go without addressing it would be foolish. I had to go up to my partner, especially since I'm assigning these games. And even if, and as I did, allowed my partner's call to stand, I still would have the opportunity to go up to the coach and say, as I did, that I listened to what my partner had to say and I agreed with his call. And the coach for this game was satisfied with that as he gave me a thumbs up as I hustled back down to the other end. These are not varsity coaches and they understand how officiating at the AAU level works they just don't want to a possible correctable situation to be ignored.

The coach knew it was clearly a situation where his team did not gain possession until in the backcourt and from where I was standing that looked to be true. But I have a habit of inserting doubt even when it doesn't seem to look necessary, and in this case that doubt helped me give my partner the opportunity an out as I wanted to defend him. Unfortunately, I was working with a guy who has a chip on his shoulder and finds it offensive to question his authority even by someone who is assigns him youth level games.

When I went up to my partner I asked him first if the player gained control before going into the backcourt. He said yes. I then asked followed up by asking, "so he gained possession of the ball with one hand before catching it in the backcourt?"

Now given the feedback I got from you all in this thread, I should have approached him in a different way even though wording this was difficult as I didn't want to seem like I was overruling him. Unfortunately I wasn't able to escape what I feared, and my partner's response to the second question was that I was making it awkward and I should stop questioning his call.

Disclaimer: this official has a great bball IQ and during his first year and showed tremendous upside. Unfortunately something happened to him last year where he had a couple of no-shows and as a result of it, he started having a chip on his shoulder, gained weight, showed up late (even to this game), and wasn't willing to hustle as well as he used to. So I had a sympathetic heart and wanted to see him recover from where he was, so I understand why he was feeling defensive. And I unfortunately crossed a personal line of his.




As I stated, I apologized at the end of the quarter to him for how I crossed that line of his. And he admitted that he took it a bit personally. But I did also mention the principle that as an official that I lived by which was that as a crew we are obligated to make sure we get the call right and even though I may approach my partner under rare and certain circumstances, my intention is to never overrule my partner. It seemed everything was cool at that point as we shook hands and let that be.

Unfortunately that was not the case with the email that I received from him questioning me on the basis of the rules and how I'm not supposed to confer with my partner about his call. So I backtracked from the start and shared this to you all in this thread so that I could go through it step by step and see where my particular mistake was. Again, unfortunately, we couldn't step beyond the play and discuss on principle where and when we're supposed to confer on a call as a crew.