Official Book Change

[Moosie74]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

I think it was one of those "it depends" moments. Some middle school games are highly organized and controlled. Other times they barely have enough players, odd uniforms, or other issues.

I did one game last year with a private school that didn't have enough same gender players that they ended up playing co-ed. I had male and females wearing the same numbers, illegal, yes, but it's pretty easy to identify the person anyway.

Their coach was also the soccer coach who knew very little about the game of basketball, administratively, my partner and I pointed out what was illegal but pushed on.

The book should be checked before every game, regardless of level. But in the original scenario, I am not charging a technical. But the coach will get reminded for the proper procedures.

[letemplay]

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

See 10-1-2c Penalty when it occurs...not discovered. Also, ref 2011-12 casebook 10.1.2 (Foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.)

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by letemplay

See 10-1-2c Penalty when it occurs...not discovered. Also, ref 2011-12 casebook 10.1.2 (Foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.)

So if this happens within the ten minute window before game start you assess the T, O=other team shoots the free throws and brings the ball in at midcourt and the then the AP arrow switches to the offending team? Is that right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So if this happens within the ten minute window before game start you assess the T, O=other team shoots the free throws and brings the ball in at midcourt and the then the AP arrow switches to the offending team? Is that right?

Mostly correct.