Official Book Change

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

In Oklahoma we take the official scorebook, count the players, make sure they have the same amount in the book. Then we take the book to each coach and ask him if everything is correct, and ask them to sign or initial at the bottom. When they sign the book any problems after that are not on the officials, the coach signed that everything was okay.

Good procedure. I wish we did it here in Connecticut.

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you don't check the book, and the scorekeeper says it was fixed in time, (prior to the 10 minute mark) how can you assess a technical foul?

You can't. And I won't. That's my ruling. I will take the word of the official scorekeeper, after all he is a member of the officiating crew, and he's there to assist us if there be a need. I still didn't need to see the book (even though it should have been done) to do any of this. If the official scorekeeper says that it was changed in a legal manner, and time frame, then that's enough for me. No technical foul charged.

[Adam]

We don't have them sign it, but we check it every game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

10.1.2 (b) "The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize."

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

You're right.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

Middle School game? ...let er slide...

Now, unsporting conduct by a MS coach...whack em' every time!

[Moosie74]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

I think it was one of those "it depends" moments. Some middle school games are highly organized and controlled. Other times they barely have enough players, odd uniforms, or other issues.

I did one game last year with a private school that didn't have enough same gender players that they ended up playing co-ed. I had male and females wearing the same numbers, illegal, yes, but it's pretty easy to identify the person anyway.

Their coach was also the soccer coach who knew very little about the game of basketball, administratively, my partner and I pointed out what was illegal but pushed on.

The book should be checked before every game, regardless of level. But in the original scenario, I am not charging a technical. But the coach will get reminded for the proper procedures.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

10.1.2 (b) "The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize."

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

Originally Posted by Adam

You're right.

I'm just going to add something. The rule seems to be written from the perspective of an effective table that is doing everything right. If, however, you have a table who's either unscrupulous or incompetent, I'd be tempted to issue the T. If this was my only indication, I'd likely pass and simply send a note to the assigner.

If, however, this school has a history of this sort of thing, or the scorer has given me trouble indicating they are not up to the task of objectively performing their duties, I can't guarantee I'd pass.

[letemplay]

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by bainsey

out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

+1

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I had a similar situation several years ago as the R in a varsity district tourney game and felt I handled it correctly, still do. The game was at a nuetral site, with an official bookeeper provided. Each team had someone keeping their respective books, one an assitant coach that remained at his bench with book. The other had an adult manager that set at the table with official bookkeeper and clock operator. Towards the end of the first half, when a foul was called and reported on a particular player, the head coach of the opposing team (and of course the one that kept the book at the bench) notified me there was no player in his book by that number. After consulting with the official book, it was determined that the book had been changed when the player (sub) first made an appearance back midway through the first quarter. Apparently the other bookkeeper simply told official keeper when this player entered that his number was actually different and the official bookkeeper made the change and DID NOT tell anyone..officials or the other teams keeper. Having neither scored or fouled until this point, there was no reason for the other teams keeper (also an assist coach prob busy on bench with other stuff) to notice this player until there was need to record a foul. I ruled since we were unable to catch the change when made, we could not assess a T...much to the objections of the coach. I still see him from time to time and I believe he still thinks I was wrong. If I learned anything from that was to remind the bookkeepers(s) NOT to make any changes ANYTIME until consulting with the officials.

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

I've had a freshman coach refuse to allow me to charge his opponent with the T.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I think in this case a T-Foul would have been warranted. The scorekeeper made the change when the player entered, well after the 10 minute pre game mark, and when asked about it they told you when the change was made.

See 10-1-2c Penalty when it occurs...not discovered. Also, ref 2011-12 casebook 10.1.2 (Foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I've had a freshman coach refuse to allow me to charge his opponent with the T.

Funny, I've had a freshman coach insist on the T. Same game and coach who insisted we hsfe a visiting player remove his black undershirt (only the neck showing) from beneath his dark maroon uniform.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I've had a freshman coach refuse to allow me to charge his opponent with the T.

...not the coach's call, but I get your point.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

Wouldn't it be a good opportunity to turn int into a teaching moment for the coaches who may be trying to advance in their careers? Enforcing the T would help them where as you may rob them of a valuable lesson they shouldn't have to learn the hard way when they get to varsity level.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by letemplay

See 10-1-2c Penalty when it occurs...not discovered. Also, ref 2011-12 casebook 10.1.2 (Foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.)

So if this happens within the ten minute window before game start you assess the T, O=other team shoots the free throws and brings the ball in at midcourt and the then the AP arrow switches to the offending team? Is that right?