Official Book Change

[ref3808]

In this area middle school games are often squeezed into the schedule in mid afternoon and at times the visiting team shows up less than 10 minutes before the game, does a couple of quick warm up drills and away we go. Often times the coaches are scrambling to get organized, aren't aware of all of the rules and are dealing with old, passed down warm up jerseys where players have different numbers for home and away and depending on the team they are playing may even use home jerseys for an away game. Table crews are kids and parents who volunteer. I'd say it's rare, to address Bainsey's question, that this would be enforced.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Out of curiosity, based on local instruction and/or culture, how many would "let this slide" in a middle school game?

In my association, if I accept a MS game, I better not half-a$$ it. Meaning I will check the book and make each coach sign it (that's how they do it here). Last thing I need is word getting back to my assigner that I didn't bother doing my job because it was "just a middle school game". Our mantra is the game you're working is the most important game of the night. The coaches, players, and parents certainly think it is, and expect us to treat it as such. I'm not saying others wouldn't skip some of the formalities, but I won't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Smitty

In my association, if I accept a MS game, I better not half-a$$ it. Meaning I will check the book and make each coach sign it (that's how they do it here). Last thing I need is word getting back to my assigner that I didn't bother doing my job because it was "just a middle school game". Our mantra is the game you're working is the most important game of the night. The coaches, players, and parents certainly think it is, and expect us to treat it as such. I'm not saying others wouldn't skip some of the formalities, but I won't.

If it's a game assigned by my local IAABO board's assignment commissioner (who assigns both high school games and middle school games), then I agree with Smitty 100%.

Regarding my Catholic middle school games, different assigner, different culture, we're not expected to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, and our assigner allows us to take some shortcuts, i.e. looser mechanics.

[Adam]

We generally ignore late rosters in ms games, but an actual change is different and I'd get this one.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

We generally ignore late rosters in ms games, but an actual change is different and I'd get this one.

Based on my reading of the OP, and the case I cited, I don't think you should "get this one."

(But I agree with the general sentiment.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Based on my reading of the OP, and the case I cited, I don't think you should "get this one."

(But I agree with the general sentiment.)

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Home team book makes a change to a home number? I'm probably getting it. But I wouldn't talk anyone into it.

10.1.2 (b) "The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize."

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

Bingo.

[OKREF]

Common sense would say if you didn't check the book prior to the game, you can't give a technical foul. You don't know when the book was changed, the official scorekeeper said it was fixed prior to the game.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

10.1.2 (b) "The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize."

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

Bob,
If the coach decides to put #10/31 in the game in the second half we will now have to deal with the number change, correct? If the official scorer "claims" he made the change prior to the deadline and we have no knowledge otherwise then we should accept the home book as being correct and again, there is no penalty. Is that correct?

Or, being that we have a situation where we have been made aware the books disagree, get it straightened right now to avoid any problems in the second half?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was questioning your statement, and I'm still questioning it. Again, please provide a citation that states that the official cannot charge a technical foul because he did not "check the book before the game".

Billy... you're making this harder than necessary.

What he means is that if you are NOT SURE a rule was broken, you can't charge a T for breaking the rule... and if you didn't bother to check the book before the game, you have absolutely no clue as to whether a rule was broken or not.

And he's right.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If you didn't bother to check the book before the game, you have absolutely no clue as to whether a rule was broken or not.

If the number was changed in the book within the proper "time frame" then I'm going to charge a technical foul, whether, or not, I checked the book before the game.

Around here "checking the book" simply means that there are eleven players warming up, and there are eleven players in the book, that all of them have legal numbers, and that none of them have duplicate numbers. I know of no official who makes sure that a 31 listed in the scorebook corresponds with a 31 uniform number on a player warming up.

If the home (official) scorekeeper tells me that a number in the book was changed, I'm going to ask him when it was changed. If there's a challenge from the offended coach, I might ask to see the rosters that the numbers were copied from, but I don't need to do a pregame "check the book" to do any of that. If the number was changed in the book within the proper "time frame", then I'm going to charge a technical foul.

Just because I screw up by not checking the book doesn't mean that two wrongs will make it right. I am not compounding my first mistake by allowing a second mistake to occur.

Maybe "checking the book" is done differently outside of my little corner here in Connecticut?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the OP, the book was apparently changed before the game. Once you get to halftime, it's too late to penalize it.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Common sense would say if you didn't check the book prior to the game, you can't give a technical foul.

Common sense is needed to be a good offcial, but not in this (general) case.

If the home (official) scorekeeper tells me that a number in the book was changed, I'm going to ask him when it was changed. If there's a challenge from the offended coach, I might ask to see the rosters that the numbers were copied from, but I don't need to do a pregame "check the book" to do any of that. If the number was changed in the book within the proper "time frame", then I'm going to charge a technical foul.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the number was changed in the book within the proper "time frame" then I'm going to charge a technical foul, whether, or not, I checked the book before the game.

Around here "checking the book" simply means that there are eleven players warming up, and there are eleven players in the book, that all of them have legal numbers, and that none of them have duplicate numbers. I know of no official who makes sure that a 31 listed in the scorebook corresponds with a 31 uniform number on a player warming up.

If the home (official) scorekeeper tells me that a number in the book was changed, I'm going to ask him when it was changed. If there's a challenge from the offended coach, I might ask to see the rosters that the numbers were copied from, but I don't need to do a pregame "check the book" to do any of that. If the number was changed in the book within the proper "time frame", then I'm going to charge a technical foul.

Just because I screw up by not checking the book doesn't mean that two wrongs will make it right. I am not compounding my first mistake by allowing a second mistake to occur.

Maybe "checking the book" is done differently outside of my little corner here in Connecticut?

Yes it is. In Oklahoma we take the official scorebook, count the players, make sure they have the same amount in the book. Then we take the book to each coach and ask him if everything is correct, and ask them to sign or initial at the bottom. When they sign the book any problems after that are not on the officials, the coach signed that everything was okay. If you don't check the book, and the scorekeeper says it was fixed in time, (prior to the 10 minute mark) how can you assess a technical foul?