Slow season coming - rule changes?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is about not identifying it. There are more words than the "F" or "S" word. And not everyone agrees that the "D" word is profanity either.

Peace

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right direction most of the time, not be complete carbon copies.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right directly, not be completely carbon copies.

Usually what you'll have is someone who, themselves, uses profane vocabulary and will refuse to call it because they'd be hypocritical of their own actions in doing so.....“Profanity is a Weak Mind Trying to Express Itself Forcibly”.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right directly, not be completely carbon copies.

Usually what you'll have is someone who, themselves, uses profane vocabulary and will refuse to call it because they'd be hypocritical of their own actions in doing so.....“Profanity is a Weak Mind Trying to Express Itself Forcibly”.

I can see that, but I guess I would want a clear line. While you say that the kids would avoid boundaries, I could see it working. I guess I don't see the point. If cursing is said in frustration to themselves I often just say "Watch the language, please" as I walk by. If it is said loud enough, and again only venting to themselves, I will make it known to everyone I am speaking with the player. It never gets worse afterwards. I just wouldn't want these to be a definitive T as it can be taken care of with a quick statement. Now if it was directed at the other team, the crowd, a partner, or myself, I would not hesititate. And even that does not have to be a curse word.

I have worked with a few religious and well educated people that used profanity in the locker room and quietly to me away from players, coaches, and fans. Usually this was used to vent frustration from a coach or a play they may have missed. While I don't use profanity, I am not offended by it unless it is directed at anyone. I smile when a player yells replacement words instead of a curse word. However, people still know what he meant.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

I can see that, but I guess I would want a clear line. While you say that the kids would avoid boundaries, I could see it working. I guess I don't see the point. If cursing is said in frustration to themselves I often just say "Watch the language, please" as I walk by. If it is said loud enough, and again only venting to themselves, I will make it known to everyone I am speaking with the player. It never gets worse afterwards. I just wouldn't want these to be a definitive T as it can be taken care of with a quick statement. Now if it was directed at the other team, the crowd, a partner, or myself, I would not hesititate. And even that does not have to be a curse word.

I have worked with a few religious and well educated people that used profanity in the locker room and quietly to me away from players, coaches, and fans. Usually this was used to vent frustration from a coach or a play they may have missed. While I don't use profanity, I am not offended by it unless it is directed at anyone. I smile when a player yells replacement words instead of a curse word. However, people still know what he meant.

Sound like we run it the same way....and as I said before, I'm not the one pushing for or arguing FOR this change. I'm just pointing that the reason that have been present for opposing it are not really valid.

[Drizzle]

My rule changes:

1) Timeouts can only be called by players on the court.

2) Adopt the NCAA timing rule so the clock stops for a made basket with under a minute left in the game.

3) Switch from 8 minute quarters to 16 minute halves.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

I can see that, but I guess I would want a clear line. While you say that the kids would avoid boundaries, I could see it working. I guess I don't see the point. If cursing is said in frustration to themselves I often just say "Watch the language, please" as I walk by. If it is said loud enough, and again only venting to themselves, I will make it known to everyone I am speaking with the player. It never gets worse afterwards. I just wouldn't want these to be a definitive T as it can be taken care of with a quick statement. Now if it was directed at the other team, the crowd, a partner, or myself, I would not hesititate. And even that does not have to be a curse word.

I have worked with a few religious and well educated people that used profanity in the locker room and quietly to me away from players, coaches, and fans. Usually this was used to vent frustration from a coach or a play they may have missed. While I don't use profanity, I am not offended by it unless it is directed at anyone. I smile when a player yells replacement words instead of a curse word. However, people still know what he meant.

Usually the way I do it and problems tend to stop. I talk to players all the time about their behavior if they are borderline and they know where I stand.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

I guess this would be for both FED and NCAA. How about eliminating the ability to inbound into the back court on a throw in after the ball has been advanced to the front court?

And/or - eliminating both the 10 second back court count and the five second closely guarded count in games that have a shot clock. Having all those counts seems redundant.

[amusedofficial]

Agree:
--Stop clock after made basket near end of game, two min. sounds about right
--T/O only by players on court

Disagree:
--Halves stead quarters. Keep quarters. Some states do Q to enable jv/v splitting

Wish list:
--Get rid of the three point arc. I heard one writer saying there was talk about abolishing the DH, if that's true they can get rid of this travesty too.

--Get rid of the arrow. Tie 'em up, you deserve an equal shot at possession at the precise spot in the game; jump it up.

--three for two on tenth foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

You cannot expect people to call something when we all cannot agree what it is that is profane.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You cannot expect people to call something when we all cannot agree what it is that is profane.

Peace

You're completely missing the point. It is not about what YOU or another official feels is profane. Everyone know what the words are....even if you try to make an argument that some people may disagree that they are profane, they still know which words everyone is talking about.

You don't have to get people to agree they profane anymore than you have to convince someone that doing a chin-up on the rim is unsportsmanlike. Just as long as everyone calls the T when they see the chin-up, it works out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're completely missing the point. It is not about what YOU or another official feels is profane. Everyone know what the words are....even if you try to make an argument that some people may disagree that they are profane, they still know which words everyone is talking about.

Everyone? So you understand language that inner city kids might say to each other that are not the common words? And I gave you an example that some people that are religious get upset by and those not so religious or a different belief system never get upset by.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You don't have to get people to agree they profane anymore than you have to convince someone that doing a chin-up on the rim is unsportsmanlike. Just as long as everyone calls the T when they see the chin-up, it works out.

You are looking for a one size fits all standard which will never happen even if they spell it out. And honestly I could give a darn what "everyone" does when everyone is not in the same circumstances. I do not work in your state, so what they do there is your business not mine. And you probably not being African-American might not allow you to understand some things that would be said amongst them that would be seen as offensive to me or why it would be offensive. That is why when officials are assigned to many games it is based on their background and understanding of their circumstances. I get it, you want a T called for these things, but then you will still have people that will call a T for things you would not agree with and that is the problem. And this is why there will never be a defined standard that everyone will agree with.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Everyone? So you understand language that inner city kids might say to each other that are not the common words? And I gave you an example that some people that are religious get upset by and those not so religious or a different belief system never get upset by.

Again, it doesn't matter....whether you or other are offended or not or whether there are cryptic neighborhood jargon that is only locally known, you could easily effectively and completely eliminate all of the common words that large groups of people consider profane. For the local slang, the officials could easily be asked to cover those too if they recognize it. If they don't know it, what does that matter? Someone could, in anyone of your games call you the worst thing you've ever heard in Chinese and you'd not have a clue. It doesn't mean you should let all of the stuff you do understand go.

Non religious people know words that religious people don't like and the only real reason to still use them is to shove it in their face.....those words actually only come from religious contexts as they mean absolutely nothing outside of it....so those words only express something when considered religiously. If you're not religious, why invoke religious language.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Again, it doesn't matter....whether you or other are offended or not or whether there are cryptic neighborhood jargon that is only locally known, you could easily effectively and completely eliminate all of the common words that large groups of people consider profane. For the local slang, the officials could easily be asked to cover those too if they recognize it. If they don't know it, what does that matter? Someone could, in anyone of your games call you the worst thing you've ever heard in Chinese and you'd not have a clue. It doesn't mean you should let all of the stuff you do understand go.

Non religious people know words that religious people don't like and the only real reason to still use them is to shove it in their face.....those words actually only come from religious contexts as they mean absolutely nothing outside of it....so those words only express something when considered religiously. If you're not religious, why invoke religious language.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to put multiple quotes in responses.

As I mentioned before I am Black and I officiate in the NYC public schools. I've worked those games for about 20 years and I also work in Hudson County, NJ. To say those are heavily ethnic areas would be an understatement. There's certain slang you'll hear when moving from neighborhood to neighborhood but there are some words which are used in every community. Those are the words you adjudicate, regardless of whether people think it's proper to use them in their 'hood. If there are words/phrases you don't understand then you don't deal with them but you also ask around so the next time the term comes up you know whether it can become an issue.

As for "language inner city kids might say that are not the common words," I just tell them they're not being used in my game that day. That's why in an earlier post I said in my PSAL pregame I tell kids the no profanity mandate includes the N-word. I'm perfectly aware kids in certain neighborhoods use that on a regular basis but if I set the standard from the start it's not a problem. As I said before, there are profane words which transcend cultures. Those are forbidden in every game and the kids know that. Once they get out of the habit of using those, the others which may not be as cross-cultural start going away as well.

Also, there are cultural habits which have already been dealt with in the NFHS rule book. Remember the "Fab 5" and wearing your shorts below your waist or your jersey outside your shorts? 3-3-5. Frayed t-shirts under your jersey? 3-5-6. Wristband on your bicep? 3-5-4c. The time-honored tradition of trash talking? 10-3-6c. I'm sure 10-3-6g - the smokeless tobacco rule - falls in there somewhere as well.

As Camron said, if we enforce them the kids adjust...the same way they adjust to the way we call contact, hand checks, etc. If a kid uses one of the well-known words, gets a T and asks us why, we tell them they can't use it durnig the game. Either they'll stop or they won't play.