Slow season coming - rule changes?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't matter that some portion of officials are trash mouths and don't find a problem with profanity. If enough people called it, it wouldn't matter. The rest would even hear it for it to be an issue because the players would learn not to push the issue.

Being someone that works games in the city or with city teams (regardless of race BTW), I find it funny how there are certain officials (usually suburban officials) that cannot even identify certain comments, actions or body language that to officials like me clearly identify or address and others are oblivious to. It is much more than language or specific words.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, we don't need a rules change, we just need officials to address it rather than sweep it under the rug so they can avoid making an unpopular decision.

A lot of officials cannot identify things to even address them. When you have never been in a culture or exposed yourself in social situation, you often would have no idea what to do if you have little exposure to it. Like I said before, not all offensive language are the words we think they are and not all actions or things that get a reaction are the same either.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Being someone that works games in the city or with city teams (regardless of race BTW), I find it funny how there are certain officials (usually suburban officials) that cannot even identify certain comments, actions or body language that to officials like me clearly identify or address and others are oblivious to. It is much more than language or specific words.




A lot of officials cannot identify things to even address them. When you have never been in a culture or exposed yourself in social situation, you often would have no idea what to do if you have little exposure to it. Like I said before, not all offensive language are the words we think they are and not all actions or things that get a reaction are the same either.

Peace

Being desensitized to bad language (verbal and otherwise) because you're around it so much doesn't mean it is ok.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Being desensitized to bad language (verbal and otherwise) because you're around it so much doesn't mean it is ok.

I mentioned in another string somewhere that NYC Public Schools adopted a "no tolerance" rule regarding profanity in the 2010-11 season. During our preseason meeting a number of officials were "concerned," to say the least. Some of their questions:

*What if a player swears at a teammate?
*What if a player misses a shot and curses out loud to himself?
*What if a player curses after making a bad pass?

Every question was met with the same answer: "What does 'zero tolerance' mean?"

I have to say, two years in, I like the rule. The kids adjusted very fast. Eliminating calls where I gave a T to a kid/coach for swearing at an opponent or me I'd say I've called 15 or so.

As for the cultural aspect of things, I don't buy it. Black (which I am), White, Brown or Other the kids will respond if you set a boundary and hold to it. We remind them in the pregame swearing isn't allowed (I also tell them that includes the "N" word). If we bang the first one to do it, anyone who didn't understand gets with the program fast.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Being desensitized to bad language (verbal and otherwise) because you're around it so much doesn't mean it is ok.

It is about not identifying it. There are more words than the "F" or "S" word. And not everyone agrees that the "D" word is profanity either.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is about not identifying it. There are more words than the "F" or "S" word. And not everyone agrees that the "D" word is profanity either.

Peace

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right direction most of the time, not be complete carbon copies.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right directly, not be completely carbon copies.

Usually what you'll have is someone who, themselves, uses profane vocabulary and will refuse to call it because they'd be hypocritical of their own actions in doing so.....“Profanity is a Weak Mind Trying to Express Itself Forcibly”.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right directly, not be completely carbon copies.

Usually what you'll have is someone who, themselves, uses profane vocabulary and will refuse to call it because they'd be hypocritical of their own actions in doing so.....“Profanity is a Weak Mind Trying to Express Itself Forcibly”.

I can see that, but I guess I would want a clear line. While you say that the kids would avoid boundaries, I could see it working. I guess I don't see the point. If cursing is said in frustration to themselves I often just say "Watch the language, please" as I walk by. If it is said loud enough, and again only venting to themselves, I will make it known to everyone I am speaking with the player. It never gets worse afterwards. I just wouldn't want these to be a definitive T as it can be taken care of with a quick statement. Now if it was directed at the other team, the crowd, a partner, or myself, I would not hesititate. And even that does not have to be a curse word.

I have worked with a few religious and well educated people that used profanity in the locker room and quietly to me away from players, coaches, and fans. Usually this was used to vent frustration from a coach or a play they may have missed. While I don't use profanity, I am not offended by it unless it is directed at anyone. I smile when a player yells replacement words instead of a curse word. However, people still know what he meant.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

You cannot expect people to call something when we all cannot agree what it is that is profane.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You cannot expect people to call something when we all cannot agree what it is that is profane.

Peace

You're completely missing the point. It is not about what YOU or another official feels is profane. Everyone know what the words are....even if you try to make an argument that some people may disagree that they are profane, they still know which words everyone is talking about.

You don't have to get people to agree they profane anymore than you have to convince someone that doing a chin-up on the rim is unsportsmanlike. Just as long as everyone calls the T when they see the chin-up, it works out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're completely missing the point. It is not about what YOU or another official feels is profane. Everyone know what the words are....even if you try to make an argument that some people may disagree that they are profane, they still know which words everyone is talking about.

Everyone? So you understand language that inner city kids might say to each other that are not the common words? And I gave you an example that some people that are religious get upset by and those not so religious or a different belief system never get upset by.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You don't have to get people to agree they profane anymore than you have to convince someone that doing a chin-up on the rim is unsportsmanlike. Just as long as everyone calls the T when they see the chin-up, it works out.

You are looking for a one size fits all standard which will never happen even if they spell it out. And honestly I could give a darn what "everyone" does when everyone is not in the same circumstances. I do not work in your state, so what they do there is your business not mine. And you probably not being African-American might not allow you to understand some things that would be said amongst them that would be seen as offensive to me or why it would be offensive. That is why when officials are assigned to many games it is based on their background and understanding of their circumstances. I get it, you want a T called for these things, but then you will still have people that will call a T for things you would not agree with and that is the problem. And this is why there will never be a defined standard that everyone will agree with.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Being desensitized to bad language (verbal and otherwise) because you're around it so much doesn't mean it is ok.

Words are just that. A kid using a profanity because he missed a shot isn't the same thing as directing a profanity at another player or official.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Words are just that. A kid using a profanity because he missed a shot isn't the same thing as directing a profanity at another player or official.

While I agree with that 100%, I generally apply that same consideration when I hear inappropriate language, there is no reason a blanket ban on commonly considered profane words couldn't work.


(And I'm not actually promoting such an idea, just discounting the reasons a few others are claiming why it couldn't/wouldn't work).