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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:55pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
...Looking off-ball isn't natural either but we learn to do it.

....
Seriously, you're comparing training your eyes to look off ball to learning how to run backwards, change directions, and still focus on players. Come on now.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:57pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Seriously, you're comparing training your eyes to look off ball to learning how to run backwards, change directions, and still focus on players. Come on now.
You act like it's hard. It really isn't.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:59pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
...I think you answered this yourself. If you are even with them you don't have the angle to see between them. You have to be ahead or behind to see between.
Huh? Very rarely are players running side-by-side. Someone is going get out front. From the sideline I'm looking through these players.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
You act like it's hard. It really isn't.
No, I act it's an unnatural motor skill, something we don't do naturally. Something that someone puts thought into while doing it. And while doing it they also have to focus on something else that doesn't come natural, looking off ball.
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Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 07:26am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
No, I act it's an unnatural motor skill, something we don't do naturally. Something that someone puts thought into while doing it. And while doing it they also have to focus on something else that doesn't come natural, looking off ball.
BadNewsRef (and just about all others),
I have enjoyed this thread for a couple reasons. First of all, I seriously doubt that the mechanics manual is going to change anytime soon to incorporate backpedaling as a mechanic.

As I pointed out earlier, SAFETY is the real reason, in my opinion backpedaling is not included as an option for basketball referees. JRut added the head injury to the list of safety concerns.

At the same time, some of us are quite fast moving backwards -- and it has BECOME very natural which is no different than looking off ball. Both take practice. Some NEVER become proficient at running backwards. Others never become proficient at looking off ball.

Ironically, in soccer, as an assistant referee ("linesman" or "line judge", if you prefer, although not accurate), we are strongly criticized for running while looking over are shoulder as opposed to side-stepping (defensive slide, if you prefer) since we may miss an offside call or other foul due to a lower-than-optimal field of view.

I do NOT ever back pedal while reffing basketball. Side-stepping is not "natural" either, but I do frequently side-step when "C" so that I am able to face directly across the court. I also side-step while "T" as the ball is being contested while being brought up the court. I believe that in these two instances, I am much better able to view my match-up(s) while moving up the court.

I will agree with my soccer counterpart, that there are several advantages to back pedaling in basketball. Unfortunately, the safety risks outweigh these benefits.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 08:36am
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I made it a point to notice how much of the court I could see while running down the court (forward) and looking over my shoulder. I could easily see more than half the court - the entire front court and some of the backcourt. There is no good reason not to run forward down the court.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 09:31am
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Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I made it a point to notice how much of the court I could see while running down the court (forward) and looking over my shoulder. I could easily see more than half the court - the entire front court and some of the backcourt. There is no good reason not to run forward down the court.
+1. I think some folks are taking "looking over your shoulders" too literally, as in you're running forward while looking almost 180 degrees behind. That's not what it means. It means to run with your head turned to your inside shoulder to look directly onto the court which then allows your peripheral to catch anything unusual that may happen behind you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef View Post
...I do NOT ever back pedal while reffing basketball. Side-stepping is not "natural" either, but I do frequently side-step when "C" so that I am able to face directly across the court. I also side-step while "T" as the ball is being contested while being brought up the court. I believe that in these two instances, I am much better able to view my match-up(s) while moving up the court....
Coach, I sidestep also, especially in 2-man crews as the new Lead helping with pressing situations...as you pointed out, like running backwards it's unnatural , but it allows you to see directly on the court.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 09:38am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
+1. I think some folks are taking "looking over your shoulders" too literally, as in you're running forward while looking almost 180 degrees behind. That's not what it means. It means to run with your head turned to your inside shoulder to look directly onto the court which then allows your peripheral to catch anything unusual that may happen behind you.
I part of our disagreement here is basically a difference in how quickly we try to get to the endline as new L. With no pressure, I move as quickly as possible to the endline and officiate play as it comes to me. It seems to me that you pace the players to the endline. This means I have to look further over my shoulder than you do to cover players (although certainly not 180 degrees, more like 95 degrees.


Quote:
Coach, I sidestep also, especially in 2-man crews as the new Lead helping with pressing situations...as you pointed out, like running backwards it's unnatural , but it allows you to see directly on the court.
But you can't do unnatural things and officiate at the same time!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
+1. I think some folks are taking "looking over your shoulders" too literally, as in you're running forward while looking almost 180 degrees behind. That's not what it means. It means to run with your head turned to your inside shoulder to look directly onto the court which then allows your peripheral to catch anything unusual that may happen behind you.
-1
That's exactly what it does mean. What you are describing is looking to your side. Peripheral vision is not good enough to see many things accurately enough to make an informed decision. Especially in 2 man where you are responsible for the line. I don't believe you can call the line with credibility with looking to the side. I'm in the process of teaching my daughter to drive. In backing up I'm teaching her to look back over her shoulder similar to how I do in officiating basketball. If she looks to her side her vision behind her is not as good as it could or should be. When I look back over my shoulder I have a much better view of the play behind me and the players.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 10:11am
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Originally Posted by rwest View Post
-1
That's exactly what it does mean. What you are describing is looking to your side. Peripheral vision is not good enough to see many things accurately enough to make an informed decision. Especially in 2 man where you are responsible for the line. I don't believe you can call the line with credibility with looking to the side. I'm in the process of teaching my daughter to drive. In backing up I'm teaching her to look back over her shoulder similar to how I do in officiating basketball. If she looks to her side her vision behind her is not as good as it could or should be. When I look back over my shoulder I have a much better view of the play behind me and the players.
All I need to see is that the ball went out on my line. I'll let my partner who is covering the ball then give me "help" if I didn't see what caused the OOB. I never (knock on wood) fail to blow my line, but I'm also not shy about asking for help. As the new Lead in 2-man I'm usually responsible for 6-9 players until the ball settles in the front court. If the action does all of a sudden come to my sideline then I'm going to stop and position myself to see the pack and to referee what's coming at me. I'm not going to keep moving away from the action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I part of our disagreement here is basically a difference in how quickly we try to get to the endline as new L. With no pressure, I move as quickly as possible to the endline and officiate play as it comes to me. It seems to me that you pace the players to the endline. This means I have to look further over my shoulder than you do to cover players (although certainly not 180 degrees, more like 95 degrees.
...
In 3-man I get down as fast as possible, in 2-man I don't. In 2-man, while in transition I want provide some "Slot" support. Also in 2-man I'm sure I close down on farther as the Trail than 99% of the officials so most times I'm not in position to have all the players behind me when the play starts going the other way.


BTW, I love this discussion. Rule talk is good and necessary, of course, but I really get excited when the discussion is about how we "officiate" and why.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 10:42am
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Don't run backwards is one of the first things I that was taught to me doing a local officials camp run by a former D1 official. The reason was 100% safety.

I don't think there can be any question that running backwards allows for a better field of vision, whether that be in one's PCA or outside it. I also don't think it's universal that turning and sprinting is faster than running backwards, at least over short distances (just inside the time line to baseline).
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Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 11:02am
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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
...I don't think there can be any question that running backwards allows for a better field of vision, whether that be in one's PCA or outside it...
Depends on what you are trying to look at and where you are positioned on the court. If you are in the middle of the court running backwards would definitely give you a better view of everything in front of you.

When you are the Lead on the endline do you stand flat (parallel to endline) or at angle? Standing flat would give your a bigger field of vision, but not necessarily the best view of what you should be looking at.


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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
...
I also don't think it's universal that turning and sprinting is faster than running backwards, at least over short distances (just inside the time line to baseline).
The time line? Talking about the 28' line? What kind of play are you talking about?
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Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 11:15am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Depends on what you are trying to look at and where you are positioned on the court. If you are in the middle of the court running backwards would definitely give you a better view of everything in front of you.

When you are the Lead on the endline do you stand flat (parallel to endline) or at angle? Standing flat would give your a bigger field of vision, but not necessarily the best view of what you should be looking at.




The time line? Talking about the 28' line? What kind of play are you talking about?
I work in a lot of small towns with small gyms (many in the 80 feet range). I was referring to the half court stripe as the time line which in those gyms is only a few strides.

When running backwards you have the ability to turn your head and shoulders to get any forward facing angle you want (within reason).

I admit I still on habit run backwards but it's more instinct than anything (I played DB and LB in high school). It's always in cases where I'm in the court of play and there is a quick steal and transition and I'm trying to avoid getting caught up in the play. If I can get to the sideline and or far enough away from the action I'll reverse pivot and run but sometimes there just isn't much time and by the time I've taken a handful steps backwards I'm already at the other FT line.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 11:46am
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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
...I admit I still on habit run backwards but it's more instinct than anything (I played DB and LB in high school). It's always in cases where I'm in the court of play and there is a quick steal and transition and I'm trying to avoid getting caught up in the play. If I can get to the sideline and or far enough away from the action I'll reverse pivot and run but sometimes there just isn't much time and by the time I've taken a handful steps backwards I'm already at the other FT line.

Ok, I see what you are saying.

On those type of plays where I'm onto the court and there's a quick steal my first move is to get out of the way and then I turn and run. If they go straight to the basket then I position myself to see in between the defender and ballhandler from behind which may mean me coming onto the court even more. If I see that a defender has gotten ahead of the ballhandler then I'm busting tail straight for the endline with my eyes on the defender.
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Old Wed Feb 01, 2012, 11:52am
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I'd much rather take a fall backwards or to the side than be tripped going forward.
I don't know about that. The only time I've fallen in soccer was going forward. A small hill caught me by surprise, and I just rolled through the fall and popped right back up. It happened right in front of the visiting bench, too.

After the game, the visiting coach warned me to watch for snipers.
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