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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I agree that it's not the right mechanic for basketball, but it has nothing to do with the view it gives.
What exactly are you looking at while backing up? If there is so much going on behind you why don't you just stop and officiate the players? If you are on the sideline as the new lead and you are backing up how are you seeing in between players coming up the court? How are you covering the crash on the opposite sideline?

So you are telling me that if you are running backwards down the sidelines your view of the court is just as good? It would seem to me half of your peripheral would be emcompassed by the fans or benches. Or do you run backwards but turn your head 90 degrees towards the court?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:18pm
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First off, let me note again that I sidestep or look over my shoulder as the play dictates.

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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
What exactly are you looking at while backing up?
The players.

Quote:
If there is so much going on behind you why don't you just stop and officiate the players?
Because the players don't stop. If you stop, you'll have players closer to the endline than you who are your responsibility.

Quote:
If you are on the sideline as the new lead and you are backing up how are you seeing in between players coming up the court? How are you covering the crash on the opposite sideline?
The same way as when looking over the shoulder except with primary vision instead of peripheral vision.

Quote:
So you are telling me that if you are running backwards down the sidelines your view of the court is just as good?
Better.

Quote:
It would seem to me half of your peripheral would be emcompassed by the fans or benches.
Only if for some reason you are staring straight down the sideline instead of looking on the court. Of course, when looking over the shoulder you are only using about a third of your visual field, so hey, half is an improvement.

Quote:
Or do you run backwards but turn your head 90 degrees towards the court?
Why would you do that? You turn your head towards the court in the same manner as the T bringing the ball up from the backcourt.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I agree that it's not the right mechanic for basketball, but it has nothing to do with the view it gives.
I, too, am a soccer guy. Easthire, I agree with just about every comment you have made in this thread.

I was at a basketball camp a couple years ago and they ask us to sprint up the court and back pedal back twice in each direction. I got my two trips before many got in one trip. Of course, the purpose of the activity was to show why back pedaling was a bad idea.

Truth is, you CLEARLY get a better view of the floor and your primary when backing up as opposed to looking over your shoulder. If you know you are beyond all players and have some sense as to where the wall is and where the cheerleaders are (basketball courts have numerous markings on them to make this task much easier), looking straight ahead provides a better field of view (court of view, if you prefer).

The ONLY reason in my mind to not back pedal in these situations is for safety reasons -- broken wrists are a pain!!! This presents a pretty compelling reason NOT to go backwards...
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:32pm
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Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2 View Post
. . . I've told him numerous times not to run backwards because its dangerous and it reveals to the whole gym who the new guy is . . .
This, from the "I can't believe how stupid we were back then" department:
I recall the very first state-sponsored rookies' officiating clinic I ever attended back in '76, where running backwards was something we were made to practice in that initial "get your feet wet" training seminar. Whether this was really the state-mandated mechanic or some renegade clinician's idea, I don't know. They lined us up just about shoulder-to-shoulder along the backcourt freethrow line, backs facing other end, practicing running backwards and starting and stopping as the clinician dribbled the ball downcourt. Dumb. Kinda the equivalent of smoking cigarettes as a cure for asthma, or building the Corvair with the gas tank in the dashboard, or a BATF party where the order of things was Beer, other Alcohol, then Tobacco, then Firearms shooting. Wow, were we stupid back in the day. But those days sure were fun!
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef View Post
The ONLY reason in my mind to not back pedal in these situations is for safety reasons -- broken wrists are a pain!!! This presents a pretty compelling reason NOT to go backwards...
How would many like to be hospitalized for a concussion or some other head trauma when your head hits on a very hard floor. Not all floors are good wood floors either. As I said before I know a couple of people carried off the floor for hitting their head while losing their balance while moving backwards. Not all of us are young, very athletic or in great shape to fall properly and not get hurt.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:41pm
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I don't run backwards but....

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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
My reason for not liking has nothing to do with possibly tripping. My thing is if you are running backwards what are you looking at? Definitely not the players headed to the paint and post areas. If you are trying to help with action along your sideline you're not much help b/c you are going away from said action. If you are trying to help you need to stop and officiate.

I see absolutely no benefit to it.
I agree he shouldn't run backwards. However, there is one benefit to it and its probably why most people use this poor mechanic. Your field of vision is better than when you are running down the court looking over your shoulder. This I believe is more prevalent in 2 man when the sideline is your responsibility. Also if you are running down court with your head over your shoulder like you are supposed to in 2 man you are just as much likely to trip over something in front of you because you can't see it.

I agree we shouldn't run backwards, however, just wanted to point out that there is one small advantage to it. Of course if you have players you are trying to beat down the court you need to be watching them and hope your partner can help you on any calls on the line.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef View Post
I, too, am a soccer guy. Easthire, I agree with just about every comment you have made in this thread.

I was at a basketball camp a couple years ago and they ask us to sprint up the court and back pedal back twice in each direction. I got my two trips before many got in one trip. Of course, the purpose of the activity was to show why back pedaling was a bad idea.

Truth is, you CLEARLY get a better view of the floor and your primary when backing up as opposed to looking over your shoulder. If you know you are beyond all players and have some sense as to where the wall is and where the cheerleaders are (basketball courts have numerous markings on them to make this task much easier), looking straight ahead provides a better field of view (court of view, if you prefer).

The ONLY reason in my mind to not back pedal in these situations is for safety reasons -- broken wrists are a pain!!! This presents a pretty compelling reason NOT to go backwards...
I don't work soccer, nor football, but for me the risks far outweigh any benefit to backpedaling. Last weekend, when I tripped, I wasn't backpedaling. If I had been, the damage would have been a lot worse (possibly a head injury). Instead of tripping and falling on my knee and wrist (my wrist is still sore), I wouldn't have seen him in the corner of my eye and had time to adjust.

Looking over my shoulder, I can see the players well enough to know if there's a matchup I need to stop to focus on.

If I find myself stopped at about the FT line, and know I'm the only one back, I might back up (in a walk) the rest of the way. But only rarely and I don't know why I do it. I notice I do it more in 3 man when there's a press with a BC throw in.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I don't work soccer, nor football, but for me the risks far outweigh any benefit to backpedaling. Last weekend, when I tripped, I wasn't backpedaling. If I had been, the damage would have been a lot worse (possibly a head injury). Instead of tripping and falling on my knee and wrist (my wrist is still sore), I wouldn't have seen him in the corner of my eye and had time to adjust.

Looking over my shoulder, I can see the players well enough to know if there's a matchup I need to stop to focus on.

If I find myself stopped at about the FT line, and know I'm the only one back, I might back up (in a walk) the rest of the way. But only rarely and I don't know why I do it. I notice I do it more in 3 man when there's a press with a BC throw in.
As Rut has said, the risk of injury from falling is less in soccer and football as it is ostensibly a softer surface. That being said, I'd much rather take a fall backwards or to the side than be tripped going forward. There's a much greater temptation to try to catch yourself falling forward (which is what breaks wrists) and it's far harder to both protect your head from the ground (the neck doesn't bend back as far as it bends forward) and I find slapping out with the arms to be easier and more instinctive when falling backwards.

Some of that may be that in my self-defense class, we are almost always thrown onto our back or sides so I just have more experience in it.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 03:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
...
1. Because the players don't stop. If you stop, you'll have players closer to the endline than you who are your responsibility.



2a. The same way as when looking over the shoulder except with primary vision instead of peripheral vision.

...

2b. Only if for some reason you are staring straight down the sideline instead of looking on the court. Of course, when looking over the shoulder you are only using about a third of your visual field, so hey, half is an improvement.



3. Why would you do that? You turn your head towards the court in the same manner as the T bringing the ball up from the backcourt.
1. So you run backwards faster than teenage boys run frontwards? After you have closed down for a shot you can backpedal and beat sprinting 16 year-old boys down the court?

2a & b. When I run with my head over my shoulder my eyes are facing the court. I'm with the pack or slightly ahead. My peripheral allows me to see to the front (the direction I'm going) and behind me, with my primary vision on to the court all the way to the opposite sideline if needed. Running while looking over your shoulder doesn't mean to torgue your neck so far that you can see the back of your shoulder blades.

3. As the new Lead you have more coverage than a Trail bringing up the ball. I have never seen a basketball official who runs backwards while turning his head left or right. They look the direction their body is facing and since they are on the sideline either everything to their left peripheral or right periperhal is OOB. And an official backpedaling cannot change direction and still focus on a matchup the way the new Trail can change directions while running forward with and keeping focus on the ballhandler.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
I agree he shouldn't run backwards. However, there is one benefit to it and its probably why most people use this poor mechanic. Your field of vision is better than when you are running down the court looking over your shoulder. This I believe is more prevalent in 2 man when the sideline is your responsibility. Also if you are running down court with your head over your shoulder like you are supposed to in 2 man you are just as much likely to trip over something in front of you because you can't see it.

I agree we shouldn't run backwards, however, just wanted to point out that there is one small advantage to it. Of course if you have players you are trying to beat down the court you need to be watching them and hope your partner can help you on any calls on the line.
In 2 man I'm less likely to sprint down the court than I am in 3-man. In 2-man I only sprint as the new Lead if it's a fast break. In 3-man I can sprint down the court after made baskets or defensive rebounds because I know the C is available to help the T. In 2-man, if there is no fast break, first thing on doing on change of possession is freezing and squaring up to the court so I can see my new matchups and find the pack. If the new Lead is backpedaling up the court that's an indication to me that he bailed out early on the shot.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
1. So you run backwards faster than teenage boys run frontwards? After you have closed down for a shot you can backpedal and beat sprinting 16 year-old boys down the court?
Yes, I can run as fast as most varsity boy soccer players while running backwards, at least over short distances (15-20 yards) and do so frequently. But admittedly, I'm a younger official and I train for soccer.

Quote:
2a & b. When I run with my head over my shoulder my eyes are facing the court. I'm with the pack or slightly ahead. My peripheral allows me to see to the front (the direction I'm going) and behind me, with my primary vision on to the court all the way to the opposite sideline if needed. Running while looking over your shoulder doesn't mean to torgue your neck so far that you can see the back of your shoulder blades.
That doesn't change the fact that you aren't using the vast majority of your field of vision for looking at play. Also, if you are with the pack, aren't you getting straight-lined?

Quote:
3. As the new Lead you have more coverage than a Trail bringing up the ball. I have never seen a basketball official who runs backwards while turning his head left or right. They look the direction their body is facing and since they are on the sideline either everything to their left peripheral or right periperhal is OOB. And an official backpedaling cannot change direction and still focus on a matchup the way the new Trail can change directions while running forward with and keeping focus on the ballhandler.
Which is why you need more useful field of vision, not less. The rest of this point is that people with little experience running backwards don't do it well. That should be self-evident. Also, it is not difficult at all to change direction while running backwards.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 03:59pm
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Another benefit of running forwards is that if you do find yourself getting beat and can't make it to your spot in time to get a good look through the play, you can adjust and come in behind the play. Running backwards, you're screwed if you end up straightlined - you can't recover.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
Yes, I can run as fast as most varsity boy soccer players while running backwards, at least over short distances (15-20 yards) and do so frequently. But admittedly, I'm a younger official and I train for soccer...
Do you turn to backpedal or are you are already backing up and then a situation comes up where you need to sprint backwards? On a basketball court you are stationary officiating when a shot goes up. Not to diminish your athletic ability but you are not backpedaling up the court faster than the teenagers around here running forward. Maybe a middle school game but not JV or Varsity in these parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
...
That doesn't change the fact that you aren't using the vast majority of your field of vision for looking at play. Also, if you are with the pack, aren't you getting straight-lined?
How am I straight-lined? I'm looking east/west through players who are going north/south . Someone who is back-pedaling is looking at the backs of players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
...

Which is why you need more useful field of vision, not less. The rest of this point is that people with little experience running backwards don't do it well. That should be self-evident. Also, it is not difficult at all to change direction while running backwards.
For soccer officials and DBs at the NFL Combine it's not difficult. I would say a majority of basketball officials don't have that training.

Running backwards is not a natural act like running forwards. It takes more engagement from the brain which takes away concentration from other activities the brain is focusing on. It may be second nature to you but it's not to most people.

As I alluded to in another post if an official is in a position to backpedal and beat all the players up court I don't see how he was engaged in the previous play on the other end of the court. He was most likely backing away from the previous play.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jan 31, 2012 at 04:07pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:17pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
. . . people with little experience running backwards don't do it well . . .
I'll tell that to the "experienced" guy I work with here and on the hardcourt who took some unwanted time off from both work and his assigned soccer schedule last season due to a fall that occurred during one of his soccer games in which he broke his wrist. Surgeries, pins, time off work, lost remainder of his Big Ten schedule, still can't pick his nose with that hand, etc. I don't think he's gonna be running backwards any time again soon. And he was "good at it."
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 31, 2012, 04:39pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Do you turn to backpedal or are you are already backing up and then a situation comes up where you need to sprint backwards? On a basketball court you are stationary officiating when a shot goes up. Not to diminish your athletic ability but you are not backpedaling up the court faster than the teenagers around here running forward. Maybe a middle school game but not JV or Varsity in these parts.
Again, I don't actually run backwards when I work basketball.

I'm at best stationary during rebounding and at worse moving towards the endline that's being shot at. Regardless, I'm usually at ~ 45 degree angle to the court meaning it's a further turn to running forward than backward. Your mileage will vary with the speed of your athletes and the schools are work are not the biggest out there.

Yes, with the current mechanics backpedaling generally means the person bailed, but we aren't talking about current mechanics (or backpedaling either which is mechanically different than running backwards).

Quote:
How am I straight-lined? I'm looking east/west through players who are going north/south . Someone who is back-pedaling is looking at the backs of players.
I think you answered this yourself. If you are even with them you don't have the angle to see between them. You have to be ahead or behind to see between.

Quote:
For soccer officials and DBs at the NFL Combine it's not difficult. I would say a majority of basketball officials don't have that training.
I agree, but that begs the question. The point is not that we don't have the training, the point is that the reason we don't do it is safety not that over-the-shoulder is a superior view.

Quote:
Running backwards is not a natural act like running forwards. It takes more engagement from the brain which takes away concentration from other activities the brain is focusing on. It may be second nature to you but it's not to most people.
Looking off-ball isn't natural either but we learn to do it.

Quote:
As I alluded to in another post if an official is in a position to backpedal and beat all the players up court I don't see how he was engaged in the previous play on the other end of the court. He was most likely backing away from the previous play.
Your implying cause and effect in a situation that's merely correlation.

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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I'll tell that to the "experienced" guy I work with here and on the hardcourt who took some unwanted time off from both work and his assigned soccer schedule last season due to a fall that occurred during one of his soccer games in which he broke his wrist. Surgeries, pins, time off work, lost remainder of his Big Ten schedule, still can't pick his nose with that hand, etc. I don't think he's gonna be running backwards any time again soon. And he was "good at it."
Just because we're experienced at something doesn't mean we never screw up at. And if he doesn't run backwards again, he probably won't be getting soccer assignments because he won't pass the physical that includes running backwards.
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