Charge???

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Nothing, and that's a completely different situation than what we are talking about. We are talking about players that flop trying to draw a whistle.

If a player anticipates and braces for impact and goes to the floor legitimately as a result of the contact we have a charge, no?

From the angle we had on that video the defensive player clearly went down on his own. Had he gotten tangled up with the offensive player while still in possession of the ball, a cutting player after a pass, or a rebounder after a try I would not have hesitated in calling a personal foul on him while on the ground.

Players often start falling backwards to brace for contact, and in the process cause their own fall. Just because a player was falling without contact does not mean he is faking being fouled. That's my point.

The play I normally see:

A1 approaches B1 in transition. B1 has established LGP, and leans backwards as he expects contact. A1 pulls up, lightly brushing B1's shoulder. B1 hits the floor because he lost his own balance rather than because of A1's contact. B1 would have drawn the charge had he stayed in position, but his preemptive action prevents illegal contact.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Players often start falling backwards to brace for contact, and in the process cause their own fall. Just because a player was falling without contact does not mean he is faking being fouled. That's my point.

The play I normally see:

A1 approaches B1 in transition. B1 has established LGP, and leans backwards as he expects contact. A1 pulls up, lightly brushing B1's shoulder. B1 hits the floor because he lost his own balance rather than because of A1's contact. B1 would have drawn the charge had he stayed in position, but his preemptive action prevents illegal contact.

I guess in that situation it would be play on.

That said lets say player A's shot is short his rebound comes right back to him with player B still directly between him and the bucket. A1 tries to drive to the basket (or makes another attempt at goal) around B1 and contact ensues that puts A1 at a disadvantage. At that point I would argue you have a foul on B1 as both team and player control ends at the try and the player on the floor did not re-establish a LGP.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I guess in that situation it would be play on.

That said lets say player A's shot is short his rebound comes right back to him with player B still directly between him and the bucket. A1 tries to drive to the basket (or makes another attempt at goal) around B1 and contact ensues that puts A1 at a disadvantage. At that point I would argue you have a foul on B1 as both team and player control ends at the try and the player on the floor did not re-establish a LGP.

If B1 isn't moving, he doesn't need LGP.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If B1 isn't moving, he doesn't need LGP.

Define moving.... we talking about planking here?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Define moving.... we talking about planking here?

Changing positions in relation to the floor. Rolling, trying to get up, stretching out the arms or legs, etc.

What Do You Have

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Changing positions in relation to the floor. Rolling, trying to get up, stretching out the arms or legs, etc.

What Do You Have

Intereresting the difference between NCAA and NHSF here, thanks for pointing that out.

In the situation on the video I'd have a foul under both NCAA (which I do tiny bit of JV stuff) and HS as I don't think the defender was motionless.

In the rare instance in which a player on the floor was perfectly motionless I'd agree with you that there is no foul, but I'll ask again are we talking about planking here (lying on the floor rigidly with your arms and hands straight at your sides)? I find it hard to imagine a situation in which there was truly no movement by a player lying on the floor. If said player is lying on his/her back on the floor and raises his/her arms verticly to protect him/herself isn't that considered movement? How is that different than a player standing verticly that extends his/her amrs horizontally and creates contact as a player drives by him/her.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Intereresting the difference between NCAA and NHSF here, thanks for pointing that out.

In the situation on the video I'd have a foul under both NCAA (which I do tiny bit of JV stuff) and HS as I don't think the defender was motionless.

In the rare instance in which a player on the floor was perfectly motionless I'd agree with you that there is no foul, but I'll ask again are we talking about planking here (lying on the floor rigidly with your arms and hands straight at your sides)? I find it hard to imagine a situation in which there was truly no movement by a player lying on the floor. If said player is lying on his/her back on the floor and raises his/her arms verticly to protect him/herself isn't that considered movement? How is that different than a player standing verticly that extends his/her amrs horizontally and creates contact as a player drives by him/her.

I agree with your take on the video. B1 undercuts A1. That said, I'm not going to ask a player to stop breathing to avoid a foul. Essentially, he gets the same movements we'd allow a player on the court without LGP. Entitled to his spot on the playing court, as long as he doesn't do anything to change or extend that spot, he's legal.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Changing positions in relation to the floor. Rolling, trying to get up, stretching out the arms or legs, etc.

What Do You Have

This has already been discussed in the thread Snaq's has given you.
If an offensive player crashes into a stationary defender, what has the defensive player done wrong to result in a foul? In NFHS this is the same even if he is on the ground.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by snaqwells

for nfhs, if b1 isn't moving, he doesn't need lgp.

ftfy.