Just a Word of Caution...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was just asking for a clarification for why is there a double standard concerning the duties/responsibilities of game management.

If you have been here long enough or were an official, you might realize that many people here claim to live by the NF Manual in every way but for some reason seem to change when the situations does not fit. Honestly I do not care what the table responsibilities are as in my state we already have standards set by them and if there are any holes the assignor sets those standards for us. Who cares what the book says about that frankly as it is not related to this topic in anyway.

Originally Posted by chseagle

As I highlighted in red, a simple solution is to ask for a place to change (or as I called it "a place of solitude", instead of automatically expecting a place be provided).

Also if you were paying attention, you would have realized that what I said about showing up dressed was mainly based on what I am going to do. That would be pretty simple if you were paying attention.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

As far as a place to change, if it's a regular season game, I expect a place to be provided before. If there isn't one, then I'll kindly ask for a place. Seems simple enough.

Yep.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

I only used the reference to illustrate that there is a standard. The NF has no jurisdiction over anyone anyway when it comes to mechanics or policies as to what anyone does in any sport. States use the NF guidelines if they choose to, having said that, when I first started working we were told to follow NF procedures and mechanics to the letter. My state has sense abandoned the NF Manual, but the middle schools in much of the state follow the IHSA policies and that includes having a locker room for officials. Actually I have never worked a middle school game and was not provided such a space (I worked an IESA Post Season just in the last couple of years). I will say in my immediate area this is not as much of a standard, but never had a problem getting such a place if requested when attending a game. Again, I am not showing up to any basketball game during the regular season dressed in that uniform. Not unless someone is going to do my laundry when I get to the site.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

As I said, I only referenced it to make a point. Also all standards officials (in any sport) are not spelled out in writing. I went to my college meeting today and many things people do are not spelled out. But I can tell you if you do not do certain things they are noticed by the very people that make the decisions. I would rather take my chance that someone in the building is probably going to notice me and expect something more than what is OK by some. I do not feel that "everyone does it" is a good excuse to do less than what is normal. It is not unusual at the middle school level to see an assignor, accomplished official, college supervisor or a big time coach to attend those games and often some individual’s behavior has been evaluated positively and negatively based on how they walk into the gym. I am just giving a suggestion; it is not my career that is going to be affected if you do not go to a game appropriately in someone's mind.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not unusual at the middle school level to see an assignor, accomplished official, college supervisor or a big time coach to attend those games and often some individual’s behavior has been evaluated positively and negatively based on how they walk into the gym.

Let's just say that is the exception and not the rule.

No, let's just say it would be extremely rare that that would happen.

No, let's just say I find it hard to believe that would ever happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Let's just say that is the exception and not the rule.

No, let's just say it would be extremely rare that that would happen.

No, let's just say I find it hard to believe that would ever happen.

You think it is an exception that the parents that watch middle school games do not have a knowledgeable or influential parent? I am not saying it is common for the Big Ten Commissioner to show up to his son's game (which happened to many I know), I am saying that it is not uncommon a state final official or a college official might just be at a game and you had no idea they were there.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You think it is an exception that the parents that watch middle school games do not have a knowledgeable or influential parent? I am not saying it is common for the Big Ten Commissioner to show up to his son's game (which happened to many I know), I am saying that it is not uncommon a state final official or a college official might just be at a game and you had no idea they were there.

Peace

The part I find hard to believe is that these "influential" people are at all concerned by the the way middle school officials are dressed when they walk in the gym.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The part I find hard to believe is that these "influential" people are at all concerned by the the way middle school officials are dressed when they walk in the gym.

You may find it hard to believe, but officials are regular people too. People will sometimes veteran officials what they think about another official and not knowing where they saw them. I could tell several stories where the wrong impression was given by someone working a game where someone was simply watching their kid play and it did not always start when they first saw them on the court. I hear a new story almost every camp I attend about that very thing. If you find it hard to believe, do not believe it. All it takes is one time for the right or wrong person. It might not be the issue of how they come to the game, but it might be something else. People make judgments about us the minute we walk in the gym. Not many people walk into a school with a bag or black pants and black athletic shoes. I hope you do not think we are not spotted by folks coming in the door.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The part I find hard to believe is that these "influential" people are at all concerned by the the way middle school officials are dressed when they walk in the gym.

Some do, some don't. Just like if someone wore a belt where I've worked, it wouldn't be considered looking professional.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not many people walk into a school with a bag or black pants and black athletic shoes. I hope you do not think we are not spotted by folks coming in the door.

I'm pretty easy to spot. The stripes are a dead giveaway. I actually don't own a bag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm pretty easy to spot. The stripes are a dead giveaway. I actually don't own a bag.

This says a lot. I will leave it at that.

Peace

[zm1283]

As usual, JRut applies his standards to everyone else and they are automatically wrong if they do anything differently than he does. Then he backtracks and tries to talk his way out of it when Snaqwells quotes him.

In this area, there is one school district that plays their middle school games at 3:00. Most, if not all officials go to these games already dressed. The assignor has made it clear that this is acceptable, and as long as you show up and work the game, everything is fine. These schools are just glad to have two officials show up. They, nor the parents (Influential or not) watching in the stands care about where or how the officials got dressed.

For every other MS game and certainly for every HS game, locker rooms are provided.

Edit: And by the way, I do agree with the part in the OP about schools complaining. If they refuse to provide somewhere to change, they can't complain about us dressing outside. With that said, even the middle schools I speak of above that start their games at 3:00 would find somewhere for us to dress if we wanted.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Edit: And by the way, I do agree with the part in the OP about schools complaining. If they refuse to provide somewhere to change, they can't complain about us dressing outside. With that said, even the middle schools I speak of above that start their games at 3:00 would find somewhere for us to dress if we wanted.

I've yet to see a school that doesn't at least have a public restroom. It might not be ideal, but at least it is not outside where you can get a sunburn.

[APG]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Edit: And by the way, I do agree with the part in the OP about schools complaining. If they refuse to provide somewhere to change, they can't complain about us dressing outside. With that said, even the middle schools I speak of above that start their games at 3:00 would find somewhere for us to dress if we wanted.

If someone has enough time to dress in the parking lot, I would think they would have enough time to find some place inside to dress. I'd ask the head coach where this is...most of the time, it's a closed off locker room for officials, sometimes a room, coach's office...sometimes it's been just a restroom, but any of those places are better than in the parking lot. Probably one of the reasons I'd never work baseball lol

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

As usual, JRut applies his standards to everyone else and they are automatically wrong if they do anything differently than he does. Then he backtracks and tries to talk his way out of it when Snaqwells quotes him.

You should NEVER change clothes outside of a restroom or locker room while on school property. What was witnessed would be enough to get a person charged with indecent exposure...or worse. Given some individuals' propensity for overreaction, it would not be surprising to see someone given lifetime placement on the sex offender registry.

I guess this statement came directly from me? Oh, if you cannot read correctly, this was in the email that was referenced in very first post of this thread from an assignor not in my area.

Originally Posted by zm1283

Edit: And by the way, I do agree with the part in the OP about schools complaining. If they refuse to provide somewhere to change, they can't complain about us dressing outside. With that said, even the middle schools I speak of above that start their games at 3:00 would find somewhere for us to dress if we wanted.

Hmmmmmmmm, interesting. Is that not pretty much the exact statement I made previously?

I better not ever hear you tell others what to they should do, because after all that would be your standards right?

Peace