Using the "H" word

[RookieDude]

I was working a Varsity Fall League last week when I had a situation arise during the game that I really didn't think was a situation until I was thinking about it on my drive home .
Player A1 makes a strong move to the hoop and throws it down on Player B . Both Teams come back down the court and Player B1 starts to post up Player A1 and he starts calling for the ball saying he has a mismatch . There is some low chatter among the two and then I clearly hear A1 say "you gotta learn to move your feet HONKY" . The ball moves around a shot is put up and I hear no more the rest of the game from either one .
I have a couple of questions :
DO I give a flagrant for use of the word HONKY?
If you think a flagrant should be called :
Does it matter if both players involved are WHITE ?
How about if both are BLACK ?
One white/one black ?

For the record everyone in the gym was WHITE and I did not give out any T's . As I said earlier I didn't even think twice about it (as far as being a flagrant) until I was driving home.

Yeah, this is a different take on a different thread...does it make any difference?

For the record...I'm with JRut on this one. Use your NFHS given judgement to actually make a judgement on whether or not the talking was of a taunting nature. If you want to kick the kid out, fine, do it...it's your judgement and your game management skills. Of course, the official that kicks this kid out for using HONKY or the "N" word, is probably the same official that "T's" up the player for hearing him say the "F" word after a missed shot.(Not loud enough for anyone else to hear but the official and the player.)
Sure...talk to the player when you get a chance...but, kick him out?...it's your call.

Finally:
IMO...it's not WHAT is said...it's HOW it is said.

BTW: If I have a situation where a player uses an obsenity loudly or in a taunting nature...I don't repeat that word to the coach...I just tell the coach the player used an obsenity. Unless I have to write a report that wants the exact verbage...why repeat the obsenity?

[JRutledge]

What if all the players are white and one teammate calls another "white trash?" What if a white player calls another white player a "wigga?" What if the word "cracker" is used?

There are a lot of words that are not so obvious. Are you going to get upset if a white player called person of color "boy?"

The rule says "inappropriate language," not just the most obvious racial terms. I would bet that many here do not even know the many slang words or their meaning to even penalize it.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Of course, the official that kicks this kid out for using HONKY or the "N" word, is probably the same official that "T's" up the player for hearing him say the "F" word after a missed shot.(Not loud enough for anyone else to hear but the official and the player.)

Oh of course....

Why even ask the question? It's obvious that your mind is already made up and closed anyway.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Are you going to get upset if a white player called person of color "boy?"

Sure...just as I would if a white player called a "person of color" the "N" word.
Just as I would if a "person of color" called a white player "Cracker, Honky, wigga, etc,.
Why? Because that, IMO, is taunting!

Is it taunting for a black player to call another black player the "N" word?
Is it taunting for a white player to call another white player "Cracker"?
IMO...Not necessarily.

While the word alone may be offensive to you as an official...I don't believe it is racial if directed toward the same race.
Therefore, I treat the offensive word just as I would any other offensive word...was it directed toward the opponent in a way that is taunting...or was it just a way one brother talks to another on the basketball court.
Again, if you as an official do not want that type of communication between players...then let them know. Talk to them...or T em up! You make the choice.
We can sit here at our computers and philosophize, but IMO I don't think we can give a blanket answer to everyone in every gym across the nation.

Remember the original thread...it stated that everyone in the gym was of the same color. So I took it as two players of the same color using slang towards one another that again, IMO, may not be offensive to each other.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh of course....

Why even ask the question? It's obvious that your mind is already made up and closed anyway.

Possibly...but I'm just giving my own personal opinion on this particular subject.

I would venture to say you have a few of your own "close minded" opinions when it comes to officiating philosophies JR...so what? We can take it or leave it...just as you can my various philosophies.

[tomegun]

Done't you think it says something about the meaning of a word when you feel it is OK to use it plainly here instead of:

N$#%ga
F*&k
S@#t
B!@#h

I think that says something right there about the weight and history the words mentioned above carry.

By the way, why is this even a discussion in a high school game? Just keep this stuff out of the game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tomegun
Done't you think it says something about the meaning of a word when you feel it is OK to use it plainly here instead of. . .

Tom, you beat me to it, but I had the exact same thought. The fact that you feel comfortable typing "honky", but have to resort to "the N word" tells you that these two expressions are not the same.

"Honky" isn't offensive at all to anybody, as far as I know. In fact, we kind of make fun of people who say honky; b/c they're so out of touch that they can't even find a good insult.

Clearly, the analogy on which the original post is based is flawed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Possibly...but I'm just giving my own personal opinion on this particular subject.

I would venture to say you have a few of your own "close minded" opinions when it comes to officiating philosophies JR...so what? We can take it or leave it...just as you can my various philosophies.

Yup, I gotta admit that I certainly am "close minded" about some subjects, Dude.

However, I think that you got into a very flawed analogy above though and made some assumptions about them that were kind of a stretch, even for me. Now, this is certainly jmo, but I just can't agree that you can put normal profanity in the same general area as racial comments. They're about as different as you can get. Personally, I'm very close minded about one of them (racial comments) and a helluva lot more open-minded about the other one (random F-shots--even if they're directed at me). I might let a kid or a coach skate under certain circumstances where profanity is involved, but no one is gonna skate if I hear a racial comment. And I don't give a damn who made that racial comment or who it's directed at either. I also make up my own mind as to whether it's a racial comment or not; I don't think that you can do it any other way. It's simply a blanket no-tolerance, no warning situation with me. And if someone wants to say "Hey, we were just funning", my reply is "That's nice. Tell it the people who are getting my report"-- because I'm putting one in, and not just to that kid's coach or AD either. If someone wants to then read that report and say "Hey, JR, you maybe were just a l'il hasty on this one and maybe wrong too", and I get my wrist slapped, well, that's OK with me too.

I wasn't really that clear above, Dude, but that's kinda where I'm coming from personally. Certainly doesn't make me right and anybody or everybody else wrong either....it is and remains just my own personal opinion.

I also hope that you didn't misconstrue what I said above from a personal standpoint. I certainly respect and value your opinions, even if I don't agree with some of them every now and then.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I would bet that many here do not even know the many slang words or their meaning to even penalize it.

Peace

I bet you're wrong.

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
What if all the players are white and one teammate calls another "white trash?" What if a white player calls another white player a "wigga?" What if the word "cracker" is used?
...The rule says "inappropriate language," not just the most obvious racial terms. I would bet that many here do not even know the many slang words or their meaning to even penalize it
.

Peace

Rut,
Yer right as far as I know.
I dunno what that stuff means.
mick

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by tomegun
Done't you think it says something about the meaning of a word when you feel it is OK to use it plainly here instead of:

N$#%ga
F*&k
S@#t
B!@#h

Excellent point.

[/i]Originally posted by ChuckElias[/i]
The fact that you feel comfortable typing "honky", but have to resort to "the N word" tells you that these two expressions are not the same.

Again, an excellent point...but, didn't JRut "feel" comfortable typing the full "N" word out? Maybe that's what I am getting at. He might not be offended if a fellow brother said that to him...but let a cracker like me say it...whew, watch out!

Originally posted by Jurrasic Referee
I just can't agree that you can put normal profanity in the same general area as racial comments.

I totally agree with you JR on that statement (as I usually do on most topics)...I guess I'm just struggling with whether or not certain words, said to the same race, are racial and therefore require me to issue a T or disqualify a player for taunting and/or unsportsmanlike conduct.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Again, an excellent point...but, didn't JRut "feel" comfortable typing the full "N" word out?

If he did, I didn't see it. 'Course, I don't usually read his posts anyway.

[Stripes33]

I think that there is no place in the game for either of these racial slurs. However, I don't think this issue is as black and white as our shirts. This is one of those grey areas that some of officials have. I've played basketball in high school and some small college ball. In that time I developed some relationships with my black teammates that would allow me to address them using some terms that a lot of us would probably get killed using on the street and vice versus. I think this is another common sense issue in determinng how the slur was directed. I would not whack a kid for this unless I thought it was a clear case of taunting but I would have a talk to make sure it doesn't happen again. Another part of good game management!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Stripes33
I think that there is no place in the game for either of these racial slurs. However, I don't think this issue is as black and white as our shirts. This is one of those grey areas that some of officials have. I've played basketball in high school and some small college ball. In that time I developed some relationships with my black teammates that would allow me to address them using some terms that a lot of us would probably get killed using on the street and vice versus. I think this is another common sense issue in determinng how the slur was directed. I would not whack a kid for this unless I thought it was a clear case of taunting but I would have a talk to make sure it doesn't happen again. Another part of good game management!

And how exactly do you determine how the slur was directed?

Do you stop play and ask the player "Hey, were you kidding or were you serious?". If he says he was kidding, you say "nevermind"? If he says that he was serious, then you nail him?

Personally, I ain't smart enough to read minds out there, so I don't even try. And I am enough of a cynic that I believe a ballplayer might just actually lie to me if it saved his butt from a T or an ejection.

Sorry, I just can't agree about about the "good game management" part imo. I think it's more a case of you guessing at the player's intentions.

Again, jmo.

[Stripes33]

I bet you're one of those guys that also calls every foul when a team is up by 30 points.