Just a Word of Caution...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is a certain level of "professionalism" in the off-the-court stuff that we do that is appropriate for each level of game. To impose college level expectations or even HS level expectations on a MS game is the equivalent of being overly officious on the court. With MS games, they're just glad to have someone show up. They're not going to care that you came dressed. If you do a good job on the court, they're really not going to care about how you arrived.

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

All of that is said does not distinguish the level or the circumstances. Now I am not asking for all of what that book states, because in many cases we do not get a shower and frankly some have been a utility closet for lack of a better term, but it was so we could go and not be exposed to the fans or coaches after the game. If you have no place to go, that is exactly what will and has happen. And many of these schools I would not take a shower in them with a full body suit, but at least we have some place to talk or discuss situations. I am not sure how you can have a candid pre-game while on the court because anything we say can and has been misconstrued and even gotten officials in trouble (Remember the officials that were overheard when they made comments about a coach some years back?). I do not think it is asking too much to have some place that we can talk or get away from fans. If there is an assault or confrontation, not having a private place could easily be the cause of that. And it is much more likely at these games than most HS or college games where there is much more security and accountability.

Peace

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

All of that is said does not distinguish the level or the circumstances. Now I am not asking for all of what that book states, because in many cases we do not get a shower and frankly some have been a utility closet for lack of a better term, but it was so we could go and not be exposed to the fans or coaches after the game. If you have no place to go, that is exactly what will and has happen. And many of these schools I would not take a shower in them with a full body suit, but at least we have some place to talk or discuss situations. I am not sure how you can have a candid pre-game while on the court because anything we say can and has been misconstrued and even gotten officials in trouble (Remember the officials that were overheard when they made comments about a coach some years back?). I do not think it is asking too much to have some place that we can talk or get away from fans. If there is an assault or confrontation, not having a private place could easily be the cause of that. And it is much more likely at these games than most HS or college games where there is much more security and accountability.

Peace

You're establishing a double standard by saying you wish that game management provide the officials a place of solitude, yet have earlier stated could really not care about the selection of & training of the table officials.

Instead of just expecting the AD or authorized representative providing a place of solitude, how about politely asking if one can be provided?

[APG]

In a thread about dressing accommodations for officials we somehow bring it back to something about the table...LOL!

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

You're establishing a double standard by saying you wish that game management provide the officials a place of solitude, yet have earlier stated could really not care about the selection of & training of the table officials.

Instead of just expecting the AD or authorized representative providing a place of solitude, how about politely asking if one can be provided?

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

In a thread about dressing accommodations for officials we somehow bring it back to something about the table...LOL!

I was just asking for a clarification for why is there a double standard concerning the duties/responsibilities of game management.

As I highlighted in red, a simple solution is to ask for a place to change (or as I called it "a place of solitude", instead of automatically expecting a place be provided).

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was just asking for a clarification for why is there a double standard concerning the duties/responsibilities of game management.

As I highlighted in red, a simple solution is to ask for a place to change (or as I called it "a place of solitude", instead of automatically expecting a place be provided).

You still brought in the table...when it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As far as a place to change, if it's a regular season game, I expect a place to be provided before. If there isn't one, then I'll kindly ask for a place. Seems simple enough.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

As far as a place to change, if it's a regular season game, I expect a place to be provided before. If there isn't one, then I'll kindly ask for a place. Seems simple enough.

Yep.

Peace

[zm1283]

From the first two pages of this thread:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don't you guys provide locker rooms? Not sure why this would even need to be said. Then again again there are people that think going to games dressed is a good thing. I stand corrected.

Peace

No one said it was a good thing, but some have said it is accepted and necessary at times in some areas.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it might be the norm, but I bet it is not expected by the assignor. I say that because a lot of guys that work those games, are working those games for a reason and their professionalism is one of those reasons. I would never come dressed to a game for so many reasons I have talked about before. They better put me in some office somewhere or I am not working the game. I am not coming out of the rain, snow or wind in my black pants that just got dirty from the outside elements. That is just not going to happen.

How do you know? There are multiple varsity officials in this area that work 3:00 MS games in the fall that go to these games dressed. That doesn't mean they are any less professional. The coaches at these schools don't give a damn how the officials arrive. They are just glad that two people are there to work their game.

On the second part, no one said that YOU have to go to any game dressed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason you do not go to a game in a uniform, is the people that see you come in the court in your cloths think two things. They think you are coming from a game or you are about to go to another when you leave. Not everyone that goes and watches a game is knows all the situations in which you took the game and the first impression you give them is the one might make more decisions about you. I know officials that could not work other levels because of the professionalism they displayed when someone of significant saw them. At a JH or Middle school game, someone's kids are playing and if the right person's kids are playing or grandchildren, they might not give you a shot if they think you are not professional.

I can tell you from experience that the people who are at the 3:00 MS games here do not care if you show up dressed or not.

Just because everyone else does it is not a good excuse IMO. They better give me a room somewhere or I am not working. This is a choice.

Again, no one said that YOU have to arrive to a game already dressed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can have personal standards that do not apply to everyone. Just because there might be people in my area that show up wearing jeans, does not mean we have to do the same.

Peace

No one said that you do.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

How do you know? There are multiple varsity officials in this area that work 3:00 MS games in the fall that go to these games dressed. That doesn't mean they are any less professional. The coaches at these schools don't give a damn how the officials arrive. They are just glad that two people are there to work their game.

Working varsity at some point does not exonerate you from acts of professionalism.

And you claim they do not give a damn but something tells me based on experience that is not totally true. A long time varsity guy and I worked a JH tournament (local) tournament some years ago for a varsity assignor and we worked two games that afternoon. We both showed up to the game not dressed in uniform and got dressed in an office or teacher's lounge. I will never forget the scorer on that game in about the first quarter of the first game said to me in an amazed voice, "You guys must be varsity officials?" I was surprised and asked her "Why do you think that?" She said, "Because you guys do everything so professionally. Most of the officials we see are so sloppy and we have to try to figure out what you they are doing. With you guys we know what your fouls are and how you deal with us is so professional." I did not even think we were doing anything special and I certainly did not tell them what we had done, but they figured it out. BTW, I also heard a positive word about our job from the assignor who appreciated our effort as the school administrators also appreciated our effort that night.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was just asking for a clarification for why is there a double standard concerning the duties/responsibilities of game management.

If you have been here long enough or were an official, you might realize that many people here claim to live by the NF Manual in every way but for some reason seem to change when the situations does not fit. Honestly I do not care what the table responsibilities are as in my state we already have standards set by them and if there are any holes the assignor sets those standards for us. Who cares what the book says about that frankly as it is not related to this topic in anyway.

Originally Posted by chseagle

As I highlighted in red, a simple solution is to ask for a place to change (or as I called it "a place of solitude", instead of automatically expecting a place be provided).

Also if you were paying attention, you would have realized that what I said about showing up dressed was mainly based on what I am going to do. That would be pretty simple if you were paying attention.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

You're establishing a double standard by saying you wish that game management provide the officials a place of solitude, yet have earlier stated could really not care about the selection of & training of the table officials.

Instead of just expecting the AD or authorized representative providing a place of solitude, how about politely asking if one can be provided?

Why should I not be surprised that you came in this thread and made it about the table in an unrelated issue? Really dude?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Help me understand your point for a second. We have people here that talk all the time about what is professional and proper as it relates to the mechanics and rules and all of a sudden we get to a JH game and all that flies out the window? If I suggested for a second that you should not use proper mechanics for example because it is a JH game I would get killed for saying just that thing or if I said that we should not do those things because it is a JH game and they do not rise to the level of importance of the high school or college level. How do you think that would go over here?

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

BTW, in the NF mechanics book under Game Management, there is a section that tells the schools what are to be expected of them to the officials. One of them on page 83 clearly says:

"Provide a clean, private dressing room with shower or nearby shower stall. Before and after a game and at halftime, the official’s room(s) should be "out of bounds" for everyone except the few who have a definite assignment there."

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apples and oranges. Rules and Mechanics have nothing to do with where you dress and how you arrive at the school.

Last time I checked, the NF had no jurisdiction over middle school games. Just because the middle school leagues choose to use the same game rules doesn't mean they have to do everything the HS's do.

I only used the reference to illustrate that there is a standard. The NF has no jurisdiction over anyone anyway when it comes to mechanics or policies as to what anyone does in any sport. States use the NF guidelines if they choose to, having said that, when I first started working we were told to follow NF procedures and mechanics to the letter. My state has sense abandoned the NF Manual, but the middle schools in much of the state follow the IHSA policies and that includes having a locker room for officials. Actually I have never worked a middle school game and was not provided such a space (I worked an IESA Post Season just in the last couple of years). I will say in my immediate area this is not as much of a standard, but never had a problem getting such a place if requested when attending a game. Again, I am not showing up to any basketball game during the regular season dressed in that uniform. Not unless someone is going to do my laundry when I get to the site.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Plus, as many (including you, IIRC, and me) have often claimed, the mechanics book is a GUIDE book. It is not the rule book. Mechanics do carry a certainly level of optionality with them. They are A way to administer the game but the game can be administered with complete legal correctness when done with modifications to the mechanics.

As I said, I only referenced it to make a point. Also all standards officials (in any sport) are not spelled out in writing. I went to my college meeting today and many things people do are not spelled out. But I can tell you if you do not do certain things they are noticed by the very people that make the decisions. I would rather take my chance that someone in the building is probably going to notice me and expect something more than what is OK by some. I do not feel that "everyone does it" is a good excuse to do less than what is normal. It is not unusual at the middle school level to see an assignor, accomplished official, college supervisor or a big time coach to attend those games and often some individual’s behavior has been evaluated positively and negatively based on how they walk into the gym. I am just giving a suggestion; it is not my career that is going to be affected if you do not go to a game appropriately in someone's mind.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not unusual at the middle school level to see an assignor, accomplished official, college supervisor or a big time coach to attend those games and often some individual’s behavior has been evaluated positively and negatively based on how they walk into the gym.

Let's just say that is the exception and not the rule.

No, let's just say it would be extremely rare that that would happen.

No, let's just say I find it hard to believe that would ever happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Let's just say that is the exception and not the rule.

No, let's just say it would be extremely rare that that would happen.

No, let's just say I find it hard to believe that would ever happen.

You think it is an exception that the parents that watch middle school games do not have a knowledgeable or influential parent? I am not saying it is common for the Big Ten Commissioner to show up to his son's game (which happened to many I know), I am saying that it is not uncommon a state final official or a college official might just be at a game and you had no idea they were there.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You think it is an exception that the parents that watch middle school games do not have a knowledgeable or influential parent? I am not saying it is common for the Big Ten Commissioner to show up to his son's game (which happened to many I know), I am saying that it is not uncommon a state final official or a college official might just be at a game and you had no idea they were there.

Peace

The part I find hard to believe is that these "influential" people are at all concerned by the the way middle school officials are dressed when they walk in the gym.