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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 12:09pm
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How far do you push?

I recently posted a question on a BC call that was made that shouldn't have been. My question to all of you is how far do you argue your position if your partner disagrees with you? Assume you feel 100% you are correct. Before you answer I understand that ideally there is a Referee and an Umpire and their is a hierarchy but some assignments do not differentiate. And also based on the coverage areas this shouldn't be a common occurrence but nonetheless when it does happen, what do you use to determine?
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 12:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick43 View Post
I recently posted a question on a BC call that was made that shouldn't have been. My question to all of you is how far do you argue your position if your partner disagrees with you? Assume you feel 100% you are correct. Before you answer I understand that ideally there is a Referee and an Umpire and their is a hierarchy but some assignments do not differentiate. And also based on the coverage areas this shouldn't be a common occurrence but nonetheless when it does happen, what do you use to determine?
Calling official, or the official in whose primary the situation occurred, gets the final call. I have only approached partners on BC calls three times. Two initiated in my area as lead, and the other was just a brain fart but I approached because he asked me to.

If you do approach, make it fast. If you can't change his mind quickly, let it go.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick43 View Post
I recently posted a question on a BC call that was made that shouldn't have been. My question to all of you is how far do you argue your position if your partner disagrees with you? Assume you feel 100% you are correct. Before you answer I understand that ideally there is a Referee and an Umpire and their is a hierarchy but some assignments do not differentiate. And also based on the coverage areas this shouldn't be a common occurrence but nonetheless when it does happen, what do you use to determine?
Ideally, once the ball goes up everyone should become an R. The R just has more pre/post game duties...

That being said, when my crew disagrees on calls or rules I've found that sending a non-threatening email with the rule & caseplay (if applicable) the next morning usually works well.
During the game, all you can do is provide info, tell them what the rule is & use the phrase that pays. This shouldn't be a long drawn out conference... he's either making it right or sticking with his call.

I feel comfortable using that technique whether I'm the U99 or the R, but you gotta know your audience.
Is the official a veteran that doesnt attend camps anymore & perhaps is behind on newer rules/mechanics?

Is the official tight with decision makers that could affect your progression if you rub them the wrong way?

Is the official interested in improving or is he there to collect a check & could care less?
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Last edited by tref; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:27pm.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 12:27pm
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This depends entirely on whom your partner is and who had the call. If it is in someone's PCA and they made a judgment call, I am probably going to allow them to live and die with that. All you can do is give information and they have to decide if your information is enough to make a change.

If the person is also the Referee or they are the more senior official or they just are not a good partner, this also might change how I approach the situation. Some of these individuals that I just mentioned would be more than happy to get information from you and do what is right whether that is make a change or stick with what they have.

I believe that it is our job to get it right, but the reality is we are not going to get it right a lot of the time. It is OK if we make a mistake or if we screw up a judgment from time to time. Not all situations can be corrected or should be corrected just because we have a different opinion. So that conversation should be short and based on what we talked about in pre-game. If there truly is a disagreement, then talk after the game in a constructive manner to see what happened.

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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 01:04pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Calling official, or the official in whose primary the situation occurred, gets the final call. I have only approached partners on BC calls three times. Two initiated in my area as lead, and the other was just a brain fart but I approached because he asked me to.
Technically, this doesn't really have anything to do with it, does it? Even if your partner makes a grossly incorrect call all the way across the court in front of you, (it happens, I know) by rule there's no way for you to change it.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 01:06pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Technically, this doesn't really have anything to do with it, does it? Even if your partner makes a grossly incorrect call all the way across the court in front of you, (it happens, I know) by rule there's no way for you to change it.
Sorry, I was thinking of situations when a no-call would get discussed. Not sure why, as that really doesn't make sense now that I reflect on it.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 03:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick43 View Post
I recently posted a question on a BC call that was made that shouldn't have been. My question to all of you is how far do you argue your position if your partner disagrees with you? Assume you feel 100% you are correct. Before you answer I understand that ideally there is a Referee and an Umpire and their is a hierarchy but some assignments do not differentiate. And also based on the coverage areas this shouldn't be a common occurrence but nonetheless when it does happen, what do you use to determine?
Unless my partner asks, I don't do or say anything about his calls in his area. If he calls in my area and I had a different opinion of the play, I'll ask him what he saw AFTERWARDS IN THE LOCKERROOM either at halftime or following the game. Most of the time, I'll just say thank you after hearing from him.
It is very difficult to question the judgment of a partner. I would recommend refraining from doing so. People get super sensitive, so leave that to the assignors or observers.

I will discuss a rule application with a partner. Again only if he asks about a play in his area. If it was in mine, now we have a good opportunity to start the conversation with what did you see there.

I never go to a partner on the court during the game about a call. He made it. He can answer for it. If he wants help, he can ask.

On
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:19pm
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Nevada, let me ask.

Play:
Freshman game.
FC spot throw-in along the endline. You're the L.
A1 launches the ball so that it lands at the division line. A2 runs and retrieves the ball, finally touching the ball around the FT line extended in the BC.

Your inexperienced partner calls a BC violation. Do you offer help?

Not a common occurance in a V game, but there are areas where 2nd year officials might be working a small school V game, so....
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:33pm
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Nope, he has to learn the hard way. I'm not going to make a big deal out of an incorrect rules application during a freshman game. I'm sure that this isn't the only thing that such an official is doing incorrectly.

If there is significant booing from the spectators and complaining from the coach, the official will remember the play and it will probably come up during the postgame. That is the proper time for teaching/instructing.


Let me add that I am one of the main instructors for my HS association. I have formed a few opinions about how to teach officials over the past several years. Some things work and some don't. What we are after is improvement from game to game and season to season. The key is to get people to retain what is taught to them. Often a live and learn experience is more memorable than a partner trying to fix stuff for a person on the court.

I am also quite aware of what we teach our new officials, so if they don't listen in the classroom or during the on-court demonstrations prior to the season, then I have little sympathy for them. We now have more officials than we have games for, so those who work hard, apply what we teach, and do some extra studying on their own are the only ones who will be sticking around. We give the new folks a couple of seasons to show us that they are trying and improving, but we aren't going to have someone just taking up space for ten years at the freshman level. We have other people who need those games for developing.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:47pm
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I'm just getting done with my second year of high school basketball. I had my first varsity games last year.

I agree that to make the error leaves a memorable scar on the officials that care. I had a couple of misapplication of rules last year, luckily none during any of my varsity games, but I was very happy that I had good mentors and people that are equally trying to get better.

I have found when a partner asks me "what did you have on that play" I may need to go look up a rule or case play. But by simply asking the question it sears the event in my mind. I can guarantee I will never misapply those rules that I messed up last year.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 04:50pm
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State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 05:04pm
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Personally, I'm going to try and give my partner information to try and change the call. If he doesn't want to change his call then I've done everything I can. I don't particular like the mindset that we should stick with a rules misapplication and keep quiet even if he have additional info we can give that can correct this.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 05:10pm
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New sitch:

Varsity game.
Live action, ball goes into the lane. A1 attempts a pass to A2, but it's tipped by B1 (also in the lane) into the backcourt where A3 retrieves it and is the first to touch.

T calls BC because he didn't see the tip.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 06:50pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?
edit....was typing up my play when someone came into my office....i hit submit a couple hours later only to see that Snaq posed essentially the same question.

Or this play....

Championship game, 15 seconds left, score within one basket ether way. A2 shoots and misses. A1, inches from the endline right in front of you lead, gets the rebound and finds himself surrounded by B4 and B5....no chance to get a shot up...10 seconds left. A2 tries to pass the ball back out to A3 but the ball sails way over A3's head into the backcourt where A3 retrieves the ball. The only players the ball ever had a chance of touching were A1, B4 and B5....all deep in you primary.

What would you do if A1 threw the ball such that it (A) was tipped by B4 or B5 and your partner(s) call a backcourt violation or (B) was clearly not tipped by either B4 or B5 and your partner(s)did not call a backcourt violation?

Your decision to act or not act has a good chance to change who wins the game.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 06:54pm.
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Old Wed Jun 22, 2011, 07:56pm
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Yesterday, I am officiating a boys' JrHS game at a local colleges boys' JrHS and HS team camp. I am the T as A1 is dribbling the ball in A's BC. A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC. My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1, . I took the call away from my partner and gave the ball to A for a throw-in nearest the spot of the "BC" violation. Team B's HC didn't complain and even told me that he know it wasn't a BC violation.

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