How far do you push?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yesterday, I am officiating a boys' JrHS game at a local colleges boys' JrHS and HS team camp. I am the T as A1 is dribbling the ball in A's BC. A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC. My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1, . I took the call away from my partner and gave the ball to A for a throw-in nearest the spot of the "BC" violation. Team B's HC didn't complain and even told me that he know it wasn't a BC violation.

MTD, Sr.

I hope you made the preacher buy you dinner after that one. Or was it Jr?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC.

Just want to double check something. The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt? No violation. Right?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just want to double check something. The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt? No violation. Right?

Billy, read what you quoted from Mark. Which part is confusing? If A1 were holding the ball and moved his pivot foot into the FC woudn't that be a travel?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hope you made the preacher buy you dinner after that one. Or was it Jr?

Neither of them was my partner in this game. If it was Junior, I would have made him walk home. LOL

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Billy, read what you quoted from Mark. Which part is confusing? If A1 were holding the ball and moved his pivot foot into the FC woudn't that be a travel?

BadNewsRef:

Go easy on Billy, the Red Sox can't seem to get away for those pesky New York Yankees and that is causing him to have trouble concentrating on basketball.

MTD, Sr.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I took the call away from my partner...

Clarification, Mark. How did you take it away? Did you immediately reverse it, or did you speak with your partner first?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1,

When I get that guy, I like to step in between the two players & wave to him as he ball watches.


NOTE: I'm still interested in hearing Nevada's thoughts on helping a partner to achieve the ultimate goal (getting plays right) on the new scenarios!!

IMO, Snaqs, APG, Camron & MTD, Sr have all provided great examples of "when" to assist, although I dont agree with "how" MTD did it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Clarification, Mark. How did you take it away? Did you immediately reverse it, or did you speak with your partner first?

I took it away immediately; Team A's HC was pretty suprised at my partner's call and he never left his spot on the endline. I think he know he had screwed the pooch (as they say on the Baseball Forum) and was glad that my actions kept A's Head Coach off his back.

MTD, Sr.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I took it away immediately...

That's what I thought. I have to admit, I cringed when I saw this, because I had a bad experience on the receiving end.

A number of years back, MS girls. Opening tip off, A-1 tips to A-2, who catches the ball with feet in the frontcourt. She pivots into the backcourt, an easy backcourt violation. My much older partner, without consulting me, immediately says I'm wrong, and gives the ball back to A at the division line. I'm too stunned to react. (Admittedly, that's on me.)

If I see something vastly different from my partner, I have no problem hustling to him and communicating it, and I expect the same from my partner. Whether my partner takes my advice is his decision, but I will never show up my partner by overriding him publicly.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A number of years back, MS girls. Opening tip off, A-1 tips to A-2, who catches the ball with feet in the frontcourt. She pivots into the backcourt, an easy backcourt violation. My much older partner, without consulting me, immediately says I'm wrong, and gives the ball back to A at the division line. I'm too stunned to react. (Admittedly, that's on me.)

I'm assuming you're T & he's L?

Originally Posted by bainsey

If I see something vastly different from my partner, I have no problem hustling to him and communicating it, and I expect the same from my partner. Whether my partner takes my advice is his decision, but I will never show up my partner by overriding him publicly.

A1 dribbles from the Ts area & spins away from the T in the lane. As the play opens up to the slot, the ball is capped before he travels. Double whistle the T begins to form the travel signal but you know all he had was back & butts.
How would you handle it??

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by tref

I'm assuming you're T & he's L?

Yes, the tip-off is complete, and I'm the R.

Originally Posted by tref

A1 dribbles from the Ts area & spins away from the T in the lane. As the play opens up to the slot, the ball is capped before he travels. Double whistle the T begins to form the travel signal but you know all he had was back & butts.
How would you handle it??

Same answer applies. If I see something vastly different from my partner, I communicate it to him. We may discuss the sequence of events, but ultimately, it's his call to reverse.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Yes, the tip-off is complete, and I'm the R.

Oh my, right out the gate huh

Originally Posted by bainsey

Same answer applies. If I see something vastly different from my partner, I communicate it to him. We may discuss the sequence of events, but ultimately, it's his call to reverse.

I had that situation in camp & I let it ride from slot as the T wasn't cognizant of my whistle & had already signalled travel without any pushback.

I was told to come over the top of his whistle when he begins to form the travel signal.
*tweet-tweet tweet-tweet* and say "I have a held ball before the play opened up to my partner" while purposefully walking towards the play & partner.

He followed up by saying this particular sitch should not be viewed as showing up your partner. You're helping him & he really shouldnt be putting whistles on plays that spin away from him anyway.
They said we tend to run & whisper too much! Sometimes the situation only needs extra *tweets* & a verbal description of the sequence of events... get on to the next play.

This is not to be confused with offering info when you DON'T have a whistle on it.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:

Varsity game.
Live action, ball goes into the lane. A1 attempts a pass to A2, but it's tipped by B1 (also in the lane) into the backcourt where A3 retrieves it and is the first to touch.

T calls BC because he didn't see the tip.

Snaqs (and camron Rust), in all fairness to Nevada, you are changing the situation drastically here. He said he would not insert himself into a rules misapplication situation. This is not a misapplication of the rule - it's simply a partner who didn't see the ball tipped by the defender. Those are two very different things.

If it were me - I would go quickly and calmly to my partner with information, on both of your situations. I would not try to argue with him/her, simply ask if they saw the tip or if there should be a backcourt violation on a throw-in. And then away we go with whatever he/she decides to do with the info.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Snaqs (and camron Rust), in all fairness to Nevada, you are changing the situation drastically here. He said he would not insert himself into a rules misapplication situation. This is not a misapplication of the rule - it's simply a partner who didn't see the ball tipped by the defender. Those are two very different things.

No, he said this...

Originally Posted by NevadaRef

Unless my partner asks, I don't do or say anything about his calls in his area. If he calls in my area and I had a different opinion of the play, I'll ask him what he saw AFTERWARDS IN THE LOCKERROOM either at halftime or following the game. Most of the time, I'll just say thank you after hearing from him.
It is very difficult to question the judgment of a partner. I would recommend refraining from doing so. People get super sensitive, so leave that to the assignors or observers.

I will discuss a rule application with a partner. Again only if he asks about a play in his area. If it was in mine, now we have a good opportunity to start the conversation with what did you see there.

I never go to a partner on the court during the game about a call. He made it. He can answer for it. If he wants help, he can ask.

He clearly said he would not go to his partner at all unless the partner asked for help...whether it was a rules situation or otherwise.

Plus, in my case, you really don't know if it is a rules misapplication or incorrect judgement. It is not the same as the ball being OOB and getting the direction wrong. Being OOB is illegal every time...but going into the backcourt is illegal only sometimes.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If it were me - I would go quickly and calmly to my partner with information, on both of your situations. I would not try to argue with him/her, simply ask if they saw the tip or if there should be a backcourt violation on a throw-in. And then away we go with whatever he/she decides to do with the info.

And that is how it should be done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?

Anyone who receives an assignment at that level has earned it from someone who put him there. It's certainly not my place to attempt to call the game for him. If you don't have enough respect for a partner on a State game then you have big problems.
In my area state games are mixed crews and so frequently are people with whom I have never worked. I would most definitely NOT go to a partner about a call. If the partner wants some help and comes to me to ask, then I'll provide the info.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Or this play....

Championship game, 15 seconds left, score within one basket ether way. A2 shoots and misses. A1, inches from the endline right in front of you lead, gets the rebound and finds himself surrounded by B4 and B5....no chance to get a shot up...10 seconds left. A2 tries to pass the ball back out to A3 but the ball sails way over A3's head into the backcourt where A3 retrieves the ball. The only players the ball ever had a chance of touching were A1, B4 and B5....all deep in you primary.

What would you do if A1 threw the ball such that it (A) was tipped by B4 or B5 and your partner(s) call a backcourt violation or (B) was clearly not tipped by either B4 or B5 and your partner(s)did not call a backcourt violation?

Your decision to act or not act has a good chance to change who wins the game.

An intelligent official as the Trail would look back to the Lead for a visual indication of tip by the defense or not before blowing the whistle. As T that is what I would do. As Lead I would give a hand signal to my partner.
If my partner wants to make a call on a play which is not in his primary without any help, then he gets to explain it afterwards.