How far do you push?

[Nevadaref]

For those of you who are going to partners with information and attempting to get calls changed or simply changing them yourselves do you also do this when your partner calls a foul which you believe is incorrect?

For example, you have a block/charge play in the lane as Lead which you think is a block, but the Trail comes running in and signals a charge before you can do anything.

Let's make it during a State championship game with five seconds left and the score is tied.

[tomegun]

OK, I may be one of those partners in that mixed crew. If you came to me and told me, "Tom, blue (the defense) tipped that ball" I would immediately put my whistle in my mouth, tweet and give the offense back the ball. Putting the ball back into play so coaches coach, players play and fans...do whatever they do.

You are also correct, I would make the call and look at you immediately. That look would say, "come help me if I'm wrong on this." I think an error of omission here is wrong and we cannot easily stop play to call the violation.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For those of you who are going to partners with information and attempting to get calls changed or simply changing them yourselves do you also do this when your partner calls a foul which you believe is incorrect?

For example, you have a block/charge play in the lane as Lead which you think is a block, but the Trail comes running in and signals a charge before you can do anything.

Let's make it during a State championship game with five seconds left and the score is tied.

That is why this game is so hard to officiate. In one situation something can be done (IMO), while in your situation that is pretty much a wrap for it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt. No violation.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Which part is confusing?

Nothing is confusing. I'm just trying to clarify the situation, especially for Forum rookies.

4.4.1 SITUATION: As Team A is advancing the ball from its backcourt toward
its frontcourt, A1 passes the ball to A2. A2 catches the ball while both feet are on
the floor – with one foot on either side of the division line. In this situation, either
foot may be the pivot foot. (a) A2 lifts the foot which is in the backcourt and then
puts it back on the floor in the backcourt; or (b) A2 lifts the foot which is in the
frontcourt, pivots and puts it on the floor in the backcourt. RULING: In (a), it is a
backcourt violation. When A2, while holding the ball, lifts the foot which was in
the backcourt, the ball is now in the frontcourt. When A2’s foot then touches in
the backcourt, it is a violation. In (b), when A2 lifts the foot which is in the frontcourt
and places it down in the backcourt, the location of the ball has not
changed. The ball is still in the backcourt and no violation has occurred. (4-35-2)

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, I may be one of those partners in that mixed crew. If you came to me and told me, "Tom, blue (the defense) tipped that ball" I would immediately put my whistle in my mouth, tweet and give the offense back the ball. Putting the ball back into play so coaches coach, players play and fans...do whatever they do.

You are also correct, I would make the call and look at you immediately. That look would say, "come help me if I'm wrong on this." I think an error of omission here is wrong and we cannot easily stop play to call the violation.

Knowing you, I'm sure that you would cover the type of plays on which you desire such help in the pregame. Yet I've been on several crews where it isn't brought up and I can tell that it isn't desired.

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Knowing you, I'm sure that you would cover the type of plays on which you desire such help in the pregame. Yet I've been on several crews where it isn't brought up and I can tell that it isn't desired.

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

OK, so tell me what you would be looking for me to do if I was the L. I would be looking right at you waiting for you to blow the whistle and I don't have a clue as to what I could do to help you until you blow the whistle.

Are you looking for me to give you come kind of tip signal? Shake my head?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

That is why this game is so hard to officiate. In one situation something can be done (IMO), while in your situation that is pretty much a wrap for it.

Right, we can't officiate for other people.

IMO people seem too eager to change the decisions of their partners.
What happened to trusting your partner? What about killing his credibility or confidence?

Each of us has different training and different judgment. We aren't always going to agree. That is why we switch positions on fouls during the game.

I've learned to live with what my partners call. If they ask, I'll share my thoughts. Otherwise, I'm going to just let it go.

[APG]

I just don't get your line of thinking Nevada...IMO, you hold pertinent information back that may lead to a changed call, then not only do you make me look, bad, but you make the whole crew look bad for not correcting something obvious. You ask if people would use this on fouls...no because that's the cut off point because those kind of plays involve a lot of judgement.

Out of bounds call...we can give a concrete fact that a player hit the ball that he may not have seen...backcourt calls a missed deflection or just a plain misapplication of a rule. This is something that is easily brought up in a pre-game and if, as you say, someone doesn't bring up the scenario, then I'd bring it up myself.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK, so tell me what you would be looking for me to do if I was the L. I would be looking right at you waiting for you to blow the whistle and I don't have a clue as to what I could do to help you until you blow the whistle.

Are you looking for me to give you come kind of tip signal? Shake my head?

I'd look back and give you this
and holler, "Tom, was there a tip?"

I would assume that you would either shake your head "no" or give me some kind of tip signal with your hands. I'd even be okay with you blowing the whistle at that point if there wasn't a defensive tip from in front of you.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, he said this...



He clearly said he would not go to his partner at all unless the partner asked for help...whether it was a rules situation or otherwise.

Plus, in my case, you really don't know if it is a rules misapplication or incorrect judgement. It is not the same as the ball being OOB and getting the direction wrong. Being OOB is illegal every time...but going into the backcourt is illegal only sometimes.

Hmmm...upon reading his comments after this post by you, I have to agree that you read his earlier posts better than I did.

I honestly have no idea where he is coming from on this...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

99% certain it in the definitions section under "Ball Location" (or maybe "Location, Ball")

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

I agree that on this (BC violation) play, L can give a "tip" signal, if there was one -- this is when it should be used. If there's no signal, then blow the whistle. If L then comes out and says it was tipped, change the call (unless T has a later touch by B, or some other reason to keep the call).

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Anyone who receives an assignment at that level has earned it from someone who put him there. It's certainly not my place to attempt to call the game for him. If you don't have enough respect for a partner on a State game then you have big problems.
In my area state games are mixed crews and so frequently are people with whom I have never worked. I would most definitely NOT go to a partner about a call. If the partner wants some help and comes to me to ask, then I'll provide the info..

This has nothing to do with lack of respect for a partner! Quite frankly, I respect the GAME first & foremost. So if his wittle feelings get hurt because he saw something incorrect & I brought info to him then that is his problem. Sh!t, he should be buying me a beer after the game... I would.

We have mixed crews here too, which really means an official that sees a steady diet of 1A ball can now see 3A-5A squads all of a sudden. ~ Hmmmmm ~
9 out of 10 times its unrealistic to expect said official to be able to adjust to the speed & skill level on the biggest stage... but thats how they do it

This thread shows how differently things are done across the country.
"Let him live & die with it vs. Get the play it right"

I'm sure if we took it to the polls the latter would win!

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'd look back and give you this

Say it aint so Nevada! You dont really use the "Idunno" do you?

[Raymond]

I pregame "help".

I let my partners know that at least once a game I usually ask for help on a OOB play from the lead and that I do so verbally.

I let them know I'm not coming in to provide information on a bang-bang OOB play that occurs in their primary even if they get it wrong but I will most definitely be bringing information if the tip occurred in my PCA before going out on their line.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

4-4-6 ... During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

[Camron Rust]

Play I had this last season....big game, big rivals, full gym.....

I'm lead with post players doing what they do. A bullet pass comes in from outside. Both players reach for the ball, neither get it.....it was at least 1 foot beyond either player's hands....not even close. I call B's ball. My partner comes to me...one I trust very much....and asks me if I want some help. I KNOW he would only come in if he had something important. I welcome the input. The defender on the passer brushed the ball as it was released...not enough to slow the ball down or deflect it more than a few inches but a touch nonetheless. I blow my whistle and announce A's ball.

Don't know if it changed the game but it made us a lot more credible as a crew.