How far do you push?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Play I had this last season....big game, big rivals, full gym.....

I'm lead with post players doing what they do. A bullet pass comes in from outside. Both players reach for the ball, neither get it.....it was at least 1 foot beyond either player's hands....not even close. I call B's ball. My partner comes to me...one I trust very much....and asks me if I want some help. I KNOW he would only come in if he had something important. I welcome the input. The defender on the passer brushed the ball as it was released...not enough to slow the ball down or deflect it more than a few inches but a touch nonetheless. I blow my whistle and announce A's ball.

Don't know if it changed the game but it made us a lot more credible as a crew.

If you were with Nevada you would've had to ask to get that play right.

[APG]

The fact that the partner came to Camron with information unsolicited probably means his partner didn't have enough respect for him and probably has big problems. Camron's credibility was lost for the rest of the game....


According to Nevada of course.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

99% certain it in the definitions section under "Ball Location" (or maybe "Location, Ball").

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

4-4-6 ... During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

Thanks guys.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Play I had this last season, big game, big rivals, full gym. I'm lead with post players doing what they do. A bullet pass comes in from outside. Both players reach for the ball, neither get it, it was at least 1 foot beyond either player's hands, not even close. I call B's ball. My partner comes to me, one I trust very much, and asks me if I want some help. I know he would only come in if he had something important. I welcome the input. The defender on the passer brushed the ball as it was released, not enough to slow the ball down or deflect it more than a few inches but a touch nonetheless. I blow my whistle and announce A's ball. Don't know if it changed the game but it made us a lot more credible as a crew.

That's exactly the way we're taught to do things here in my little corner of Connecticut, and it's part of almost everyone's pregame. In thirty years, working almost eight hundred high school assignments, I've only had one partner, just a single one, in thirty years, not appreciate my help. And I'm talking about offering help here, not changing someone's call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

If you were with Nevada you would've had to ask to get that play right.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

The fact that the partner came to Camron with information unsolicited probably means his partner didn't have enough respect for him and probably has big problems. Camron's credibility was lost for the rest of the game....

According to Nevada of course.

For every example such as Camron's there is the counter situation in which a partner who came to "help" actually made the error.

My guess is that in the long run officials are better served by staying out of it and trusting their partners to make quality decisions.

If a partner sees a play one way, but I see it another who is to say that I am right? I'm not going to assume that my judgment is superior. Quite possibly a play which looks a certain way from my angle looks completely different from where my partner is. I would rather trust that he had a good look, and if he didn't that he will ask for help. I've seen two videos showing how it can look as if a player touched a ball from one angle, but when another view is shown it is clear that there was no contact.

I've now worked half a dozen state championship games and probably twice that many state semi-finals. I've found myself on the court with people who used to work in the PAC-10, Big West, and even one who has done a couple of Super Bowls. I'm not going to go running across the court to those guys thinking that they need me to come to their rescue. I have more respect for and confidence in these people than that. They didn't get to where they are/were by not being able to handle plays.

That said, the philosophy that I've expressed in this thread is the opinion that I've formed over 15 years on the court. This is what I have come to believe. My opinon has certainly changed over time. It may change again, but for now this is what I'm doing and it is working for me.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For every example such as Camron's there is the counter situation in which a partner who came to "help" actually made the error.

Which is why you don't change the call but communicate that you have info if your partner wants it. They still get to make the final decision.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Which is why you don't change the call but communicate that you have info if your partner wants it. They still get to make the final decision.

Absolutely! Maybe Nevadas partners would still be working major DIs if their partners assisted NO, I'm just kidding!

We all do what works best for us, individually. If it ain't broke...

[Nevadaref]

I'll make one additional comment for my thinking in this.
Several of the more veteran officials out here still use the "save a foul" concept when making OOB calls. That means that they will see contact and instead of penalizing it when the person with the ball or who would have gained possession of the ball loses/last touches the ball which goes OOB, these folks simply award the throw-in to that player's team.

I don't agree with this idea, but I'm not going to go to those people and inform them that I clearly saw W11 touch the ball last only to be told, "Yeah, I know. I saved B32 a foul." This happens fairly frequently in this area when working with some of the long-time vets.

I strongly believe that it is not our job to "save" players fouls. We should be judging the contact as illegal and penalizing it or deeming it incidental and properly awarding possession on the OOB to the team which didn't last touch the ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'll make one additional comment for my thinking in this.
Several of the more veteran officials out here still use the "save a foul" concept when making OOB calls. That means that they will see contact and instead of penalizing it when the person with the ball or who would have gained possession of the ball loses/last touches the ball which goes OOB, these folks simply award the throw-in to that player's team.

I don't agree with this idea, but I'm not going to go to those people and inform them that I clearly saw W11 touch the ball last only to be told, "Yeah, I know. I saved B32 a foul." This happens fairly frequently in this area when working with some of the long-time vets.

I strongly believe that it is not our job to "save" players fouls. We should be judging the contact as illegal and penalizing it or deeming it incidental and properly awarding possession on the OOB to the team which didn't last touch the ball.

I don't think we're talking about going in with info on those types of plays....but more likely the ones where all of the information needed to make the right call may take knowledge of things outside the calling official's primary or from angles the calling official simply could not see.

On the "Save-a-foul" kinds of plays, I make eye contact with my partner if I see something but think that is what they're doing. They nod back and we move on....all without going in.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'll make one additional comment for my thinking in this.
Several of the more veteran officials out here still use the "save a foul" concept when making OOB calls. That means that they will see contact and instead of penalizing it when the person with the ball or who would have gained possession of the ball loses/last touches the ball which goes OOB, these folks simply award the throw-in to that player's team.

I don't agree with this idea, but I'm not going to go to those people and inform them that I clearly saw W11 touch the ball last only to be told, "Yeah, I know. I saved B32 a foul." This happens fairly frequently in this area when working with some of the long-time vets.

I strongly believe that it is not our job to "save" players fouls. We should be judging the contact as illegal and penalizing it or deeming it incidental and properly awarding possession on the OOB to the team which didn't last touch the ball.

Which is addressed, as I said in my last post, by not giving help on plays that occur in that official's PCA. But if a shot or pass is tipped coming from your PCA you are just going to turn a blinded eye if your partner gives the ball to the wrong team? That has nothing to do with saving a foul.

[Brick43]

I want to thank all who commented on this post. I never thought it would gather this many responses. I will say that after reading all of your thoughts and comments it is clear that I need to be discussing more in the pre-game conference. Typically my partner is more senior than I and they are conducting the conference but for this league I am working with all 1st and 2nd yr refs. So my 5 yrs is now the Sr.

One last question: I am going to be working with this ref over the next 6-8 weeks in this league, a rotation of 4 refs, do I show him the rule book for this situation? He is a 2nd yr ref.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Brick43

I want to thank all who commented on this post. I never thought it would gather this many responses. I will say that after reading all of your thoughts and comments it is clear that I need to be discussing more in the pre-game conference. Typically my partner is more senior than I and they are conducting the conference but for this league I am working with all 1st and 2nd yr refs. So my 5 yrs is now the Sr.

One last question: I am going to be working with this ref over the next 6-8 weeks in this league, a rotation of 4 refs, do I show him the rule book for this situation? He is a 2nd yr ref.

Exactly what happened on the court?
What was the play?
What discussion, if any, happened after he made the call?
Was it a rule error or a difference in judgment? IOW, did he simply see it differently, or did he see the same thing and misapply the rule?
Was there post-game discussion?

[Brick43]

The first post of this thread. My partner called a BC violation because a-2, received a throw-in and tipped the ball into the BC and was the 1st to retrieve in the BC. I saw the whole play as I was chopping in the clock and knew there was no violation. I called him over for a conference and he saw exactly what I saw but was adamant that by rule this was a BC violation. He didn't change his call and we proceeded with the game.
I do not have the rules book in front of me now but when I read the Case # it read identical to our situation. So my question is do I bring this up this week when I see him?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Brick43

The first post of this thread. My partner called a BC violation because a-2, received a throw-in and tipped the ball into the BC and was the 1st to retrieve in the BC. I saw the whole play as I was chopping in the clock and knew there was no violation. I called him over for a conference and he saw exactly what I saw but was adamant that by rule this was a BC violation. He didn't change his call and we proceeded with the game.
I do not have the rules book in front of me now but when I read the Case # it read identical to our situation. So my question is do I bring this up this week when I see him?

I would.

"Hey, you got me into the rule book after that last game, thanks. Look what I found in the case book."

You'll find out real fast how receptive he is to actually learning the rules.