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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 11:46am
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PC or did the push cause it?

Another video post waiting to be critiqued!

B10 takes the ball to the basket where W5 seems to have established legal guarding position on the play, however W11 (I think that is his number) puts a hand on his back. The contact is from the back side isn't a lot, but was it enough to give A11 the foul over a PC on B10?

YouTube - Push and Charge GH game 2010

also anything else you see in the play that the Trail could have done better?
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 11:56am
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Like you said, definitely a PC if there's no contact from behind. Really hard to tell either way from this angle though.

Looks like the C is coming in and perhaps would have made a call had you not. So any discussion?

Notice how the L has fans walking IN FRONT of him! AAHHHHH. So count him out for any help. I had a kid, not paying attention, try to walk in front of me the other night. I stuck my arm out to stop him. There is no way I'm letting someone walk between me and the court during a live ball.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:02pm
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Thumbs up

I've got a quintuple flagrant foul and all 10 players are ejected. There - that makes it easy.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:03pm
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I'm guessing you're T. If so, I like what you did - the play went left, you took a step right to get the open angle since the offense and defense were "side by side."

Hard to tell from the angle if the primary defender's push (I can't even tell if there was a hand on the back for sure) was significant. I'd have a hard time from the video having anything but a PC.

Appeared the L got straightlined by some cheerleaders. I've never understood fans/kids/whoever feeling like it's okay to walk in front of an official on the endline during play.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:04pm
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It certainly looks to me like the defender riding the offensive player pushed him forward -- I've got a push from behind (albeit not a great angle)

But as trail I think you can benefit from a few things

1) I think you can come down into the play more - you're out there in space a little. Yes its a big court but I think you're awfully high up... especially to be coming in with a whistle on that play.

2) You can take a few steps to the left -- you are completely straightlined on this play (again I think you can release this play with the angle you have). So you're unable to see if the defender moved under because you're looking at the back of the offensive player. You'd also be able to have a better gauge on the space (or lack of space) between the defender from behind/any arm extension.

Just in terms of positioning, Think about if the player went straight up and didn't have a collision this shot - you're going to want to be able to help on elbow hits or offensive player pushing off so you want more of a side angle.

3) Not a trail comment but How does the C NOT have a whistle here right in the middle of the paint? Or maybe he was being a little patient but I like him taking this call to the table with the L straightlined (distracted? ha) by cheerleaders

4) Especially being the only whistle I don't think you need to run down from out in space - your partners are both on top of the play - release them to watch the players if you're going to take this call.


Just my thoughts.

Last edited by bradfordwilkins; Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 12:07pm.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:07pm
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Wow...tough call. Clearly the type of tough call we get paid to make. I replayed it several times and IMO there's a case to be made for going either way.
Curious...any comment from B coach as to push before PC foul? Any feedback from your crew...esp. C?
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:07pm
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It looks like the T might have straight lined himself, he could have gotten wider and closed down on the play rather than waiting to run in after he had a whistle.

As far as the play itself, it is tough to see exactly how much the contact from behind caused the player to crash into the defender. If you have the defender in that spot legally, then to me it is still a PC and depending on whether or not there is contact from behind before the PC, I might have a false double - from the video it doesn't appear that whatever contact there was from behind caused the shooter to crash into the defender.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:12pm
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C clearly had the best look as far as if there was a push in the back. In this case, I would expect the C and the T to have whistles with T having first crack at the call. Player control from what I could see on the video.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:14pm
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Or was it enough...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent View Post
Another video post waiting to be critiqued!

B10 takes the ball to the basket where W5 seems to have established legal guarding position on the play, however W11 (I think that is his number) puts a hand on his back. The contact is from the back side isn't a lot, but was it enough to give A11 the foul over a PC on B10?

YouTube - Push and Charge GH game 2010

also anything else you see in the play that the Trail could have done better?
... to keep player with ball from evading the secondary defender?
It looks like your ball handler was going strong without any assistance.
Appears he tried to split the defenders, but primary defenders contact from behind prevented it. If so, you could go with push on W11.

Is your C coming in with a little 'block' action? My youtube quality is the schiznits....
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 12:24pm
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impossible to tell from that angle if you ask me.

If no push- PC

If there was a push- then it's a push.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 01:33pm
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Good move Clark!

4) Especially being the only whistle I don't think you need to run down from out in space - your partners are both on top of the play - release them to watch the players if you're going to take this call.

Not sure it I'm interpreting your comment correctly, but I think Clark did the right thing by running closer to the actual foul(s) sight. This strategy of getting closer to a "long call" gives a perception that you were close to the play. I have PC and could also be talked into a foul by W11 but the angle is bad for me.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 03:23pm
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This looks like a casebook PC.

The offensive player was driving all the way to the basket. The contact by the primary defender is negligible as the offensive player did not make an attempt to pull up and shoot the ball. If you take away the primary defender and just look at it from the offensive player and the secondary defender you will have the same contact.

Unless the primary defender offers a shove in the back before the collision thats good defense and an offensive player forcing the action. No way I would personally have a block or a no call. PC all the way.

Cases can be made either way in a lot of calls however I truly believe that 99% of the calls are either "right" or "wrong". Here I think a block, push or no call is the incorrect way to go based on my reasoning above.
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Last edited by deecee; Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 04:08pm.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 03:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post

Cases can be made either way in a lot of calls however I truly believe that 99% of the calls are either "right" or "wrong". Here I think a block or no call is the incorrect way to go based on my reasoning above.
I don't think anyone here would advocate a blocking call... or even a no call here.

The question is push or pc.
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins View Post
I don't think anyone here would advocate a blocking call... or even a no call here.

The question is push or pc.
I don't know are you sure the defender had his feet planted?


KIDDING!!!
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Old Tue Feb 02, 2010, 04:27pm
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I know where the drive started, but the person with the perfect angle on the push/no push *and* the PC foul is the C. The C could easily get this. Gotta say, unless this is a real push that displaces (and not merely a little bump from behind) it's a PC foul (at least in my mind).

In a lot of my 3-person pregames this season, we've talked about who is going to step up on a foul in the lower half of the lane where the drive is right down the lane (like this). Most of us feel the L/C has a much better look than the T, who seems a long way away from this play. Of course the response of the official depends on whether they focus on men's or women's mechanics (if they work college ball, too). I really don't work either, and I think the L has a better chance to referee a secondary defender or even a defender that comes up from the baseline. OMMV (and does).

I wonder if the C pulled back because of how strong you came in here. To me, the message on an official coming in *this* strong can be "I've got something important to add here", right or wrong.

Good video. If possible, could you leave a few more seconds on either end of these calls (maybe 5 before and 5 after)?
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