Double Foul During AP Throw-In

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

Nope, it's not what I'm saying.

Everyone seems to be getting confused by the fact that the throw-in happens to be an AP throw-in.

Anytime a DF happens during a throw-in, you simply resume that throw-in. Since this one is an AP throw-in, you go back and do the AP throw-in and flip the arrow when appropriate.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope, it's not what I'm saying.

Everyone seems to be getting confused by the fact that the throw-in happens to be an AP throw-in.

Anytime a DF happens during a throw-in, you simply resume that throw-in. Since this one is an AP throw-in, you go back and do the AP throw-in and flip the arrow when appropriate.

But we ended up with the same conclusion, and I don't believe that anything I said is incorrect.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

... POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow...

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

That is not correct. POI most definitely involves team control. It's the first thing on the check list.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That is not correct. POI most definitely involves team control. It's the first thing on the check list.

I never did receive a copy of this year's books, so could you please enter that list for me?

[tref]

A good way to remember how to administer POI situations (aside from studying the rulebook) is, what would've happened had my partner not blown his/her whistle.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

Nope, not quite. POI is the team last in control, or other activity, such as a throw-in or FT. You only go to the arrow when there is no team control, or no other activity to complete.

For example, change Bob's question to the following: B travels, so A has a throw-in for the violation. The arrow is currently pointing to B. A5 and B5 commit a double foul. As mentioned before, A5 and B5 are both charged for a foul, no FT's, and then A will get the original throw-in as a result of the POI, which was the throw-in they were attempting at the time of the double foul. B would not get an AP throw-in as a result of the double foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

But we ended up with the same conclusion, and I don't believe that anything I said is incorrect.

The hi-lighted portion below is incorrect.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

Same conclusion, different roads.

Would you use the arrow if the double foul was called during a throw-in following a violation?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Play: A1 is holding the ball out of bounds for and alternating-possession throw-in. Prior to A1 releasing the ball, A4 and B5 are called for a double foul. How is play resumed? How is the alternating-possession arrow affected?

The point of interruption is the throw-in.

Just one of the many reasons I dropped Referee.

[Scrapper1]

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The double foul doesn't cause the arrow to change. The completed AP throw-in after the foul causes the arrow to change.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

Agreed. It's not the same as a kicked ball violation by B.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

Yes. There is no team control during a throw-in. You can't give the ball back to the team just because they had the ball for the throw-in, you have to use the AP.

Rule 4-31-1 Art2.c: "An alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."