Double Foul During AP Throw-In

[bob jenkins]

Play: A1 is holding the ball out of bounds for and alternating-possession throw-in. Prior to A1 releasing the ball, A4 and B5 are called for a double foul. How is play resumed? How is the alternating-possession arrow affected?

[Adam]

POI is the AP throw-in. Ball to the team who had it for the throw-in, arrow will switch once the throw-in is completed.

Had A1 released the ball, same result.
Had A1 released the ball and the ball been tipped but not controlled, then you would have an AP throw-in to the other team (the arrow would have reversed on the tip.)

[26 Year Gap]

I don't think fouls affect the AP status, although the POI was attempting the AP throw-in. I suspect the throw-in is an AP throw-in just as with the incomplete one at the time of the double foul.

[jTheUmp]

Assuming FED rules. (going by memory here)
1) no team control during the throw-in.
2) throw-in hadn't ended when double foul occurred, so possession arrow hasn't yet switched.
3) no FTs for a double foul.

So, you report the double foul to the table, and resume play with A getting a second chance at an AP throw-in. After A completes the throw in, switch the possession arrow to B.

Am I right?

[JugglingReferee]

Team A arrow throw-in.

[bob jenkins]

Thanks. Just checking to see if RefMag had it right. They didn't.

[reffish]

Double foul goes with POI when there is team control. During a throw-in, there is no player control, hence no team control. So the subsequent throw-in will be based on possession arrow. However, the double foul occurred during a possession arrow throw-in. The foul does not cause the team entitled to the throw-in lose the possession arrow. The arrow stays, and the subsequent throw-in is for the no team control during a double foul go to the arrow throw-in.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Thanks. Just checking to see if RefMag had it right. They didn't.

And what did RefMag say (what issue was it and was it in the NASO Membership portion of the magazine?

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

Double foul goes with POI when there is team control. During a throw-in, there is no player control, hence no team control. So the subsequent throw-in will be based on possession arrow. However, the double foul occurred during a possession arrow throw-in. The foul does not cause the team entitled to the throw-in lose the possession arrow. The arrow stays, and the subsequent throw-in is for the no team control during a double foul go to the arrow throw-in.

Right result, wrong reason.

1. Double fouls always go to POI. Always.
2. First stop: was there team control? No.
3. Next stop: was a throw-in involved or pending? Yes. Go back to that.

[JugglingReferee]

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Thanks. Just checking to see if RefMag had it right. They didn't.

Well color me surprised. I don't think I've read the last three issues of Referee that I've received.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

Nope, it's not what I'm saying.

Everyone seems to be getting confused by the fact that the throw-in happens to be an AP throw-in.

Anytime a DF happens during a throw-in, you simply resume that throw-in. Since this one is an AP throw-in, you go back and do the AP throw-in and flip the arrow when appropriate.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nope, it's not what I'm saying.

Everyone seems to be getting confused by the fact that the throw-in happens to be an AP throw-in.

Anytime a DF happens during a throw-in, you simply resume that throw-in. Since this one is an AP throw-in, you go back and do the AP throw-in and flip the arrow when appropriate.

But we ended up with the same conclusion, and I don't believe that anything I said is incorrect.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

... POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow...

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

That is not correct. POI most definitely involves team control. It's the first thing on the check list.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Double foul goes to POI. The arrow doesn't change on a foul, so it remains in A's favour. POI is a situation with no team control, so we use the arrow. Arrow points to A, so A's ball for an APA throw-in.

I'm not sure if that's what you're sayin', Snaq.

Nope, not quite. POI is the team last in control, or other activity, such as a throw-in or FT. You only go to the arrow when there is no team control, or no other activity to complete.

For example, change Bob's question to the following: B travels, so A has a throw-in for the violation. The arrow is currently pointing to B. A5 and B5 commit a double foul. As mentioned before, A5 and B5 are both charged for a foul, no FT's, and then A will get the original throw-in as a result of the POI, which was the throw-in they were attempting at the time of the double foul. B would not get an AP throw-in as a result of the double foul.