Double Foul During AP Throw-In

[Scrapper1]

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The double foul doesn't cause the arrow to change. The completed AP throw-in after the foul causes the arrow to change.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

Agreed. It's not the same as a kicked ball violation by B.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

Yes. There is no team control during a throw-in. You can't give the ball back to the team just because they had the ball for the throw-in, you have to use the AP.

Rule 4-31-1 Art2.c: "An alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by reffish

Yes. There is no team control during a throw-in. You can't give the ball back to the team just because they had the ball for the throw-in............

Actually, you can.

You should.

By rule, you must.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by reffish

Yes. There is no team control during a throw-in. You can't give the ball back to the team just because they had the ball for the throw-in, you have to use the AP.

Rule 4-31-1 Art2.c: "An alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."

You're completely wrong. Rule 4-36-2(c) is neither relevant or applicable. Did you even bother to read 4-36-2(b)? That states the interruption....i.e. the double foul.....occurred DURING A THROW-IN.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're completely wrong. Rule 4-36-2(c) is neither relevant or applicable. Did you even bother to read 4-36-2(b)? That states the interruption....i.e. the double foul.....occurred DURING A THROW-IN.

JR, Gamer, thank you, you are the first two to direct me to a rules reference. Everyone else has just been talking about what they will do. So, the team has a throw-in, double foul. Report the foul, resume with the throw-in as before. Okay, I can do that. We do the same for the AP throw-in. Call the DF, go back to the throw-in and switch the arrow after the throw-in is complete. Got it, thanks JR and Games

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rules 4-36-1 and 4-36-2(b) covers it in case anybody gives a sh!t.

Originally Posted by reffish

JR, Gamer, thank you, you are the first two to direct me to a rules reference. Everyone else has just been talking about what they will do. So, the team has a throw-in, double foul. Report the foul, resume with the throw-in as before. Okay, I can do that. We do the same for the AP throw-in. Call the DF, go back to the throw-in and switch the arrow after the throw-in is complete. Got it, thanks JR and Games

No, we were posting the rule, we just didn't reference it like JR did way back in post # 32. You seemed to know where to look, so I didn't think I needed to give the reference. I should have taken JR's cue, though.

My mistake.

JR posted the rule reference long before your latest

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by reffish

...Everyone else has just been talking about what they will do. ..

Yes, what we would do because we knew the rule already. What were you basing your administration of the play on?

[APG]

Originally Posted by reffish

Yes. There is no team control during a throw-in. You can't give the ball back to the team just because they had the ball for the throw-in, you have to use the AP.

Rule 4-31-1 Art2.c: "An alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."

What about the article that comes right before it?

"A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by reffish

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

Yep.

4-36-2b
Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.