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Old Sat Nov 29, 2008, 10:39pm
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throw-in after double personal during free throw

Been playing and watching b-ball for 40 years and I don't think I've ever seen a double personal foul called. But I'm studying for my first exam.

A-1 is to shoot a free throw. A-2 and B-2, positioned along the lane, are called for a double personal foul as
(a) the official is bouncing the ball to A-1:
(b) A-1 is holding the ball at the line:
(c) A-1 is in the act of shooting:
(d) A-1s shot is in the air:
(e) A-1s shot is in the basket:

I think -
In (a) and (b) the official reclaims the ball, reports the fouls to the table, and then A-1 gets his shot; there's no throw-in.
In (d) there's no team control at the point of interruption; the shot counts if it's good; then the AP arrow determines who gets a designated-spot throw-in behind the end line.
In (e) the shot counts; the official stops play and reports the fouls, then B gets a throw-in with the run of the end line.
What about (c)?

Thanks for any thoughts.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 29, 2008, 11:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetotheedge View Post
Been playing and watching b-ball for 40 years and I don't think I've ever seen a double personal foul called. But I'm studying for my first exam.

A-1 is to shoot a free throw. A-2 and B-2, positioned along the lane, are called for a double personal foul as
(a) the official is bouncing the ball to A-1:
(b) A-1 is holding the ball at the line:
(c) A-1 is in the act of shooting:
(d) A-1s shot is in the air:
(e) A-1s shot is in the basket:

I think -
In (a) and (b) the official reclaims the ball, reports the fouls to the table, and then A-1 gets his shot; there's no throw-in.
In (d) there's no team control at the point of interruption; the shot counts if it's good; then the AP arrow determines who gets a designated-spot throw-in behind the end line.
In (e) the shot counts; the official stops play and reports the fouls, then B gets a throw-in with the run of the end line.
What about (c)?

Thanks for any thoughts.
First of all the question is incorrectly written.
Under the conditions given in (a) the fouls must be technical fouls because the ball is dead until it is caught by the free thrower. So in (a) a double technical foul shall be called. The game will be resumed at the POI, which is A1 attempting the FT under the same conditions.

(b) The fouls make a double personal foul and the POI is used. A1 attempting his FT under the same conditions.

(c) A1's try is dead because a DPF has occurred and the try was not yet in flight. The ruling is the same as (b).

(d) Since the try is in the air when the DPF occurs, the result of the FT stands, whatever that may be. The POI depends upon whether this FT attempt was to be followed by another one or not and if it was successful or not.

(e) A1's FT counts, the DPF is reported, and the game resumes at the POI, which is either another FT for A1 or an end line throw-in for Team B. That would depend upon whether or not A1 is entitled to an additional FT.
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Old Sat Nov 29, 2008, 11:47pm
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Doubles

I hate calling double personnels....always go back thinking someone fouled first and I missed THAT one - then it led to the one we called.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 12:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
I hate calling double personnels....always go back thinking someone fouled first and I missed THAT one - then it led to the one we called.
So when one player smacks the other and then that guy immediately retaliates, are you going to let the second player get away with a free shot at his opponent or are you going to call that a technical foul?

In such a situation a double personal foul is completely proper and fair.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 10:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
I hate calling double personnels....always go back thinking someone fouled first and I missed THAT one - then it led to the one we called.
My words from an earlier thread:

Two seasons ago, I had a partner, a veteran, who calls a pretty good game, but doesn't pay too much attention to rules, or mechanics, ream me out at halftime for calling a double foul in the first half, and to never call a double foul in any of his games ever again. I filed that "constructive criticism" under, "When In Rome ...". These two kids were elbowing each other at the mid-post position. They didn't heed my warning to, "Knock it off". My double foul cleaned up that type of action for the rest of the game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 01:59pm.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
I hate calling double personnels....always go back thinking someone fouled first and I missed THAT one - then it led to the one we called.
Participated in an assignors preseason weekend camp- varsity boys scrimmage showcase games, and the the experienced instructor working the 3 man with us 2 "campers" tells us in pregame that we need to watch for lane violations because of arms being outside the lane(you know- players trying to get positioning/crossing arms prior/during the free throw).
Instructor is administering 1 free throw after a made basket, shooter has ball, he calls DPF, goes to AP. He points out afterwards that calling that early cleaned up that issue the rest of the game....
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 11:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel View Post
He points out afterword that calling that early cleaned up that issue the rest of the game.
Good advice:

Voting in Chicago: "Vote early. Vote often".

Calling double fouls: Definitely call them early, but not necessarily often.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 11:34am.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closetotheedge View Post
Been playing and watching b-ball for 40 years and I don't think I've ever seen a double personal foul called. But I'm studying for my first exam.
They're not called often, but it may be that one was called in a game you were watching and you just didn't know it. It's a really good tool for officials who have opposing knuckleheads to deal with.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
I hate calling double personnels....always go back thinking someone fouled first and I missed THAT one - then it led to the one we called.
And they show slow motion of two rams butting heads?

Who creates the contact first on those?

I've had plays where A1 and B1 hurl themselves towards each other when positioning for a rebound. Fortunately its usually shoulder to shoulder, but very similar to the rams.

Also, as a side note, I've noticed the winner of the A1/B1 matchup often is perceived as the better potential mate by the ewes!
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 View Post
They show slow motion of two rams butting heads? Who creates the contact first on those?
Simple. It's the Tower Philosophy. It's the one who puts the other one at a disadvantage not intended by a rule. And why would two Rams be butting heads? They play the Dolphins today, and I'll be watching for this type of action.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 01:45pm.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Voting in Chicago: "Vote early. Vote often".
Boy, does that bring back memories. My mom was a precinct worker in the original Daley machine. I remember once she "sold" a loading zone permit to some hardware store owner for $50. Of course, the money went to the local party office.

It wasn't until I moved to Oregon that I found out politics and government might sometimes be two separate things. However, recently, that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 06:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel View Post
Participated in an assignors preseason weekend camp- varsity boys scrimmage showcase games, and the the experienced instructor working the 3 man with us 2 "campers" tells us in pregame that we need to watch for lane violations because of arms being outside the lane(you know- players trying to get positioning/crossing arms prior/during the free throw).
Instructor is administering 1 free throw after a made basket, shooter has ball, he calls DPF, goes to AP. He points out afterwards that calling that early cleaned up that issue the rest of the game....
Make sure that you respond with a big "HEE-HAW" because that assignor is a DONKEY.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 07:35pm
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Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
So when one player smacks the other and then that guy immediately retaliates, are you going to let the second player get away with a free shot at his opponent or are you going to call that a technical foul?
If there's a smack and retaliation, probably gonna have double T and possible ejection.

I didn't say I don't call DPFs. I only said I usually think I could have done a better job handling the situation prior to the incident through talking, persuading etc. Sometimes, players are gonna be stubborn and you have to call it. No prob. I just wish my game managment skills were such that it didn't happen.
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 07:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
If there's a smack and retaliation, probably gonna have double T and possible ejection.
How is that possible when the first contact occurs during a live ball?

How do you justify charging that player with a T?
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Old Sun Nov 30, 2008, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
How is that possible when the first contact occurs during a live ball?

How do you justify charging that player with a T?
Depends on exactly what a "smack" is.
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