Throw-in, Double Foul

[tjones1]

Team A has the ball for a throw-in. A1 is the thrower. After A1 releases the ball and while the ball is still in the air (untouched by B and A), a double foul is called on B3 and A2.

What's the ruling?
__________________________

I say report the double foul and then give the ball back to Team A for a throw-in via POI, since the throw-in never ended.

Another says report the double foul and then go AP.

What's the ruling?

[zm1283]

Fed Rules: 6-4-3g

It's AP if a double personal foul occurs and the POI is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved. (It's a throw-in, so there is no team control)

The other person is right. Go to the arrow.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Fed Rules: 6-4-3g

It's AP if a double personal foul occurs and the POI is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved. (It's a throw-in, so there is no team control)

The other person is right. Go to the arrow.

Seems to me you are punishing the throw-in team since they never completed their throw-in. What about 4-36-2b?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Seems to me you are punishing the throw-in team since they never completed their throw-in. What about 4-36-2b?

That rule just talks about POI. You still inbound the ball at the POI, but the AP determines who gets to throw it in at the POI.

[tjones1]

Yes, but 4-36-1 says:
Method of resuming play due to ... a double personal foul... .

Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. ...
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. AP (which is basically 6-4-3g again)


To me, the throw-in was still occurring when the infraction took place. The throw-in was never touched by Team A or Team B. Why can't you go back to it?

Just having a hard time buying you go AP. To me, you punish the throw-in team.

If Team A has the arrow and just scores a bucket. Team B on their throw-in releases the ball without anyone touching it, B4 and A4 get banged with a double foul, you're giving the ball to Team A via the AP. Seems like they gain a huge advantage.

[Back In The Saddle]

Buzzzz. Thanks for playing.

The ball goes back to A for a throw-in. The AP arrow does not figure into this at all.

NFHS 4-36-2-b "A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

The interruption occurred during the throw-in. The POI is the throw-in.

[Back In The Saddle]

So I'm bemused by the constant confusion over when to go to the AP. The AP is the last resort for POI. Yet so often I hear people wanting to make it the first choice.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by tjones1

If Team A has the arrow and just scores a bucket. Team B on their throw-in releases the ball without anyone touching it, B4 and A4 get banged with a double foul, you're giving the ball to Team A via the AP. Seems like they gain a huge advantage.

Thanks, BITS. I was using the situation above to try and convince him - wasn't buying it.

Now, zm1283. I totally agree with you had the throw-in ended.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So I'm bemused by the constant confusion over when to go to the AP. The AP is the last resort for POI. Yet so often I hear people wanting to make it the first choice.

Excellent point, BITS. It's listed last in 4-36-2 for a reason. That is, if the play doesn't meet the other two then you go AP.

I think the problem is when dealing with doubles the first question that is asked is whether or not there was team control. If there isn't, they automatically want to resort to the AP.

Then again, maybe not. But that's the only thing I can come up with.

[zm1283]

So when does 6-4-3g apply? It says that when double personal, double technical, or simultaneous fouls occur, and AP throw-in is used when there is no team control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved. I'm just asking for clarification.

Also, in what situation would you use the AP for a double foul if this situation doesn't meet that criteria?

[Back In The Saddle]

You really have to read it in light of 4-36, which gives a much more complete view of POI.

[BillyMac]

Scrapper1 posted this a few weeks ago. I haven't had time to go through all the various permutations, but I think it works:

If the double foul happens:
a) during a free throw or throwin, you resume with the free throw or throwin;
b) after a foul or violation, then you resume by administering the penalty for the foul or violation;
c) while the ball's in play and there's team control, then you simply give a throwin to the team in control;
d) when there is no team control, and there's no way to know who would have gotten the ball, then,
and only then, you go to the possession arrow.

It's actually really simple. Just ask yourself, "What would've happened if the whistle had not blown?" If you answer that you don't know, then go to the possession arrow. Otherwise, just do what you were going to do next anyway.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zm1283

So when does 6-4-3g apply? It says that when double personal, double technical, or simultaneous fouls occur, and AP throw-in is used when there is no team control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved. I'm just asking for clarification.

Also, in what situation would you use the AP for a double foul if this situation doesn't meet that criteria?

There was an infraction (or goal) involved, just prior to the double foul. That's why you had the throwin to begin with.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'm bemused by the constant confusion over when to go to the AP. The AP is the last resort for POI. Yet so often I hear people wanting to make it the first choice.

I, too, wonder why this seems to be a source of common misunderstanding. I think people are so focused on the fact that there's no team control (and it's GREAT that officials recognize this) that they forget that we have to consider the basket or infraction involved, which caused the throw-in in the first place.

As Billy posted above, I think that the POI rule is actually very easy to administer once you know the definition. You just have to remember that there are 3 parts to the definition.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by zm1283

So when does 6-4-3g apply? It says that when double personal, double technical, or simultaneous fouls occur, and AP throw-in is used when there is no team control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved. I'm just asking for clarification.

Also, in what situation would you use the AP for a double foul if this situation doesn't meet that criteria?

Here are 2 examples of AP on double foul.
1) A1 releases the ball for a try. Player/Team control has ended. A2 and B2 are called for a Double Foul and the basket is not made. No team control was ever reestablished, thus AP Throw-in.
2) A1 releases the ball on a throw-in. The ball is touched (no Control) by a player. Throw-in has ended. The ball is loose. A2 and B2 scramble for the ball and they are whistled for a Double Foul. No team control was ever reestablished, thus AP Throw-in.