I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Adam]

My comments earlier notwithstanding, item #1 in the OP would have drawn a warning to the HC for me. I certainly wouldn't have answered the comment from the AC.
His final comment in #2 would have drawn a T from me.

I'm assuming all future discussions would have taken a different format after the T.

[stir22]

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

[tref]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

Its not a p/c foul when contact is not made or when it doesnt put the defender at a disadvantage.

Originally Posted by stir22

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

There sure are a lot of automatics, nevers & always...

Say the assistant coach calls you an a-hole, you hit the bench & indirect to the HC. He says it again, you could've ran him this time but you chose not to assess it to the AC.

If I have definite knowledge of the offender on the bench, I give it directly to them & indirectly to the coach.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

Dropping the shoulder and charging into an opponent violates 10-6-1 as they are impeding the progress of an opponent by extending a shoulder and employing rough tactics. This rule does not say any thing about the opponent having to have LGP.

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

Asst coaches are bench personnel. If they commit an unsporting act, you charge the AC with a direct T and the HC gets an indirect T.

It sounds like you've been advised to T the HC instead of the AC under the theory he's responsible for the AC's conduct. Don't do this. The indirect T the coach gets already takes care of this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

The key is to officiate the defense. Dropping the shoulder takes away some of the doubt, but it's still not automatic. If the defender is coming at the ball handler, the ball handler is allowed to protect himself; and lowering his shoulder could be a means of bracing for contact.

Knowing whether the defender has LGP is the key here.

Originally Posted by stir22

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

I'm not even sure what he means. You absolutely can give a T to the assistant coach, and it still gets applied to the HC indirectly.

A quick word to the HC will usually take care of it; "Coach, I'll answer questions if I have time, but your AC doesn't get the same privileges you do." That usually works, or you can be more direct with, "Coach, please take control of your bench."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by stir22

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

First, I don't consider lowering the shoulder an "automatic" call, as there is no specific provision in the rules for such. Remember, you are still trying to determine who initiates contact, and whether such contact is illegal and puts the other player at a disadvantage. While it is probably a good indication that someone who lowers their shoulder might indeed be trying to push their way through, or clear out space, it is not an automatic. I've seen players lower their shoulder to protect from an onrushing defender, for example.

In your second question, I'm not quite following - are you saying you've been told not to give a T to an assistant coach, because it would also be an indirect to the HC? If so, that would be bad advice. That is exactly the reason you would inform the HC that they are indeed responsible for the behavior of their benches, and if the HC cannot control it, the HC will also be penalized with the indirect.

[M&M Guy]

I guess I'm losing my speed typing skills.

So, what they said, above.

[stir22]

many, many thanks...

[26 Year Gap]

Where to start? I guess you are lucky you didn't have to listen to the rest of the game in your car. Were you hoping the official would see you officiate in a game sometime to see how it's done? Too bad Padgett didn't have your game. Your shoes wouldn't have been the only thing that got puked on, and deservedly so.

[stir22]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

First, I don't consider lowering the shoulder an "automatic" call, as there is no specific provision in the rules for such. Remember, you are still trying to determine who initiates contact, and whether such contact is illegal and puts the other player at a disadvantage. While it is probably a good indication that someone who lowers their shoulder might indeed be trying to push their way through, or clear out space, it is not an automatic. I've seen players lower their shoulder to protect from an onrushing defender, for example.

In your second question, I'm not quite following - are you saying you've been told not to give a T to an assistant coach, because it would also be an indirect to the HC? If so, that would be bad advice. That is exactly the reason you would inform the HC that they are indeed responsible for the behavior of their benches, and if the HC cannot control it, the HC will also be penalized with the indirect.

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by stir22

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

Correct. With the added penalty of the HC losing the coaching box priviledges.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by stir22

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

You've got it. Any direct technical foul on bench personnel (you can read the definitions to determine who is bench personnel when) is also an indirect on the head coach.

There is never an indirect T without a direct T. And only the direct T is penalized in the form of free throws and possession. The only impact of an indirect T is that it ends the coach's coaching box privileges and counts as one of his three toward ejection.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by stir22

i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

First, let's get this out of the way. The guy in your pool is an idiot.

As for the asst. coach, unless everyone in the gym hears him being an a$$, I usually give the coach an opportunity to take care of his asst. If he doesn't, I'll take care of him the next time he opens his yap.

I've stuck one asst. this year. Two players were going for the ball and her girl went down hard. Contact was incidental, no foul. She jumped off the bench and yelled for a foul. Easy WHACK!

In any case, handle it. Do not let an asst. run his mouth at you.

[Adam]

I've only had to ring up one assistant. They're star player traveled right before making a transition shot. I called the travel, and they thought at first I was calling a foul. Both coaches stood up and yelled at me for calling the travel. Easy T. Things went much smoother after that.

[Judtech]

Good reply's one and all. I will do my best to hit as many themes as possible:
- Yes, I was being a dick in #3 and #4. I admit it. Let emotions get the better of me for awhile. I apologized to the other coach and the offical about it.
- In #2 the official was right there and the tone I used wasn't bad and the official didn't seem to take it in a bad way. He actually said "Ok" Should I have said it? No. I usually tell my wife to tell the official those things.
- The only time I raised my voice was in talking with my players. I was not ranting and raving up and down the sidelines. In the past I had a tendancy to stand up and call plays etc, but I have worked very hard on staying seated doing the same thing.
- For those asking what I would have done with an assistant coach in that situation that is an interesting question. For starters, I wouldn't have missed those plays. Secondly,I would only address the head coach. In #4 I was the one being directly addressed, probably b/c I was the one instructing them to get to the 3 pt line. If the comments were directed to the head coach, it takes the AC out of the loop. Finally, I would have whacked me in #4 and call the bluff, I would have asked the HC to take care of her bench after #3 and maybe #2. But again, if you don't engage an AC in a conversation, it takes care of a lot of this.
- What "example" was I setting for the officials and/or our players. This is a really great question and we can go on and on. As for the officials, they were certainly not newbies. Even though they were not from our association, unless they started VERY late in life, they had been around a long time, so this was not a case of me picking on some newbies. It also goes to show that coaches and assistant coaches will give you as much crap as you are willing to take. Also, knowing the rules helps. Simple rule knowledge would have difused the whole scenario. With regards to the players, I know what we teach, I would be more interested in hearing what "bad things" were supposedly taught. I do know that it further emphasizes that officials don't cost you a game. Your actions as a player determines the outcome of a game.

- RICH in #1, I didn't say anything. Most of the rest of what you said I agree with 100%. Yes I was "That" guy, however, I'm not sure if they knew I officiated or not. I WAS glad my wife didn't play the "My husband is an official" card. As someone said to me "You tried to show up an official with your superior rules knowledge". That made the point to me.
- SNAQ - Thanks for clarifiying the "On the 3 pt line" comment. Glad our players understood it! Like I said, I would have whacked the mouthy assistant too! And my wife was shooting for the T and she is a very good shot!
- Freddy - Which one do you THINK you were
- ROCKY I do believe you did make up a new word, and I like it! Not sure how the players were involved in it however. They weren't being asked to do anything illegal
- MandM - you make great points. I would disagree about the equivelancy of officials and coaches. When I am officiating I could not care less who wins. I have only a vested interest the crew and me doing our jobs. I am an unbiased participant. As a coach, I have a vested interest and a biased view. Block, charge, hold, push, hit, those are the jobs of the officials, and knowing that I am biased actually helps me keep my mouth shut. More often than not I find myself explaining to our players WHY it was a foul and what they need to do to avoid a foul in the future. At least for me the emotions I feel as an official and a coach are completely different. I have been leading this "double life" for about 7 years, and my bench decorum hasn't been an issue with the exception of the above mentioned standing to call plays.
- JUST Really? Questioning my character on just this post? Did you ever have an assistant coach say anything to an official? Did you also find them of poor character and aberrant? I did not come here to brag, just state what happened. Hopefully, the above clarified.
- JUR REF - We obviously don't see eye to eye on much, but I would be interested in the "What if.." What if you received a tape of the above rules being kicked, of the officials addressing the AC etc. What action would you take? How would you handle the officials? (For this question, the AC would NOT be an official) Not trying to be a smart ***, but I think it might be helfpul to others on the board how something like this would play out. There are those who fear "getting a tape sent in", especially when they kicked something, and having the curtain pulled back may put some at ease.

Hope that clarifies things. Thanks for all the responses, makes for good reading and serves as good "penance" to keep myself in check!! "Read The Official Forum and memorize the "Bench Personnel" section of the rule book and sin no more! If I didn't address something you think I should, just let me know!