I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You definitely wouldn't enjoy officiating football.

Heh heh. No kidding.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Item 1 was completely innocuous. Nothing he said was unsportsmanlike and it was a true statement. Plus, the ref blew the call.

Item 2 was certainly flirting with going too far and he was even wrong on the point he was making (you don't have LGP when you are running beside someone). That should have at least drawn a warning to the HC about the assistant's behavior.

Item 3 wasn't him....at least the part that was worthy of much attention or a T. And the ref had blown the call.

Item 4 was indeed too much and deserved a T....but he was right and the ref either knew it or at least doubted himself. The ref was in a dilemma about whether to call a T and/or eject the head coach (with no rule to support that) and expose his mistake(s) or retreat and take it as a learning experience. At the beginning, he was simply telling his players were to go (legally) and to not listen to the official. The coaches, even assistant coaches if they're seated, have the right to direct their players were to be on the court and how to play the game. Even if that instruction puts them in violation of a rule, then the officials should just make the call...particularly when the official suggests they move back and the coach directs them to stay. And even so, it would have only been a FT violation if the shot was missed...nothing more....certainly not a T or an ejection of the head coach. The ref was writing his one rules on this one and deserved to be called on it.

In the end, I can only hope OFC1 goes home and opens his rulebook so he doesn't invite that kind of trouble again by BS'ing his way through situations.

[just another ref]

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

[Jurassic Referee]

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

Except there's no real need for the players to be there, other than the OP using that to show up the official that doesn't know the rules. The lane is cleared and there's going to be a throw in after the FTs. I'd just roll my eyes, tell the players to go behind the division line, and report this to the assignor after the game.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

Seeing the biological father that I never saw has been lying in an Air Force military cemetary since 1944 after being KIA on his 30th mission, I really don't think your likening my detest for his actions as turning him into Hitler is very appropriate. I would never dream of making that particular comparison of anyone short of a mass murderer, let alone Judtech no matter how bad Judtech's actions might be in my mind. I detest Judtech's actions and I judged him on those alone. I don't know him as a person.

JUDTECH- "And yes it had the DESIRED affect of freezing their shooter as she procededed to miss her second shot".

That was a deliberate and admittedly planned unsporting act of intimidation to gain an advantage for his girls high school team. You rationalize it. I won't. I don't care how bad the officials are, there is NO excuse imo for behavior like that. If you're getting bad officiating, then complain about it using the appropriate and proper procedure.

Earlier this year, I had an extremely promising young official quit over similar actions from a coach. Deliberate acts to try and intimidate him. Good kid I'd know for years. Knew his father fairly well too. The kid was an outstanding high school player, played college ball while getting his degree and came back to this area to work. Now married with a young daughter. He did a little bit of officiating for us as a high school senior and during summers. He wanted to get involved with officiating again and I thought he had the potential to go to the college level. Now he's gone forever and our association...and basketball in our area.... are the poorer for it.

Can I forgive and forget? Nope. But I certainly can hope that the treatment that Judtech received here will stop him from repeating what he did in the future. And from his later posts, I think that it just might do that. At least maybe he'll think about it the next time he feels like going after officials.

We just have completely different perspectives, Snaqs. That's all I'm going to say.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

I'll add that it's a good thing I'm not coaching, because knowing myself as well as I do, I wouldn't react well to officials who don't know some very basic rules (like the fact that touching a rolling basketball does not equate to player control, thus traveling is impossible.) I would not respond well to an official telling my players they had to be behind the division line for technical foul free throws.

I'm more inclined to judge people based on what I know and how I've been trained, and that means I'm going to be more inclined to judge an official's rules knowledge than I am a coach's behavior.

And I'm certainly not going to judge a man's character based on a post he made while the adrenaline was still flowing from an incident like this. I don't recall him ever coming on here before and talking about having behaved like this, so it does seem to be an isolated incident. Y'all do whatever, though; it's a free country.

I couldn't agree more. Judd's mea culpa has been met with mostly pi$$ & vinegar instead of being a learning experience for all.

I, personally, appreciate hearing from the coaches' side. It helps me understand the dynamics involved in emotional game situations. This understanding helps us become better officials, IMO. Like it, or not, we are in the people business. Learning to deal with people well will make you a better official.

Jurassic, you are correct to point out that Judd's behavior was unacceptable. Judd has acknowledged the same. Jurassic, you are wrong to question Judd's ability to be a good coach or good official based on one situation.

If one mistake is all it takes to disqualify somebody as a good official or coach, then both Jurassic and Judd fall short and should turn in their whistles/clipboards pronto.

Of course, the miscues well documented by both in this thread do not and should not define them. Instead, let's take from this thread what we really should: an excellent learning experience for us all.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

And because you support officials in general, I will always have enormous respect for you and the majority (imo) of officials like you. We can argue and fight amongst ourself, but we are family.

Thank you.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I couldn't agree more. Judd's mea culpa has been met with mostly pi$$ & vinegar instead of being a learning experience for all.

I, personally, appreciate hearing from the coaches' side. It helps me understand the dynamics involved in emotional game situations. This understanding helps us become better officials, IMO. Like it, or not, we are in the people business. Learning to deal with people well will make you a better official.

Jurassic, you are correct to point out that Judd's behavior was unacceptable. Judd has acknowledged the same. Jurassic, you are wrong to question Judd's ability to be a good coach or good official based on one situation.

If one mistake is all it takes to disqualify somebody as a good official or coach, then both Jurassic and Judd fall short and should turn in their whistles/clipboards pronto.

Of course, the miscues well documented by both in this thread do not and should not define them. Instead, let's take from this thread what we really should: an excellent learning experience for us all.

Except it wasn't 'one mistake', it was a pattern of behavior. And the response comes off like the "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" mantra uttered by so many when they have been uncovered in less than honest behavior. What some of you are forgetting, is that he WAS NOT THE HC. And even if he was, and perhaps more latitude could be given, the fact remains that he was an AC pushing his weight around when what was required of him was to sit down and shut up. Could he have simply relayed things to the HC and let the HC alone handle things? Novel idea, isn't it? And speaking to the appropriate people i.e. assignors/AD AFTER the game should have been the road taken. Do any of you REALLY think this was an isolated incident and first time occurrence? Is Coach K that warm and cuddly guy you see in commercials?

[RobbyinTN]

I guess what surprises me about this post is that an official would come on here and "brag" about how he raked fellow officials over the coals while serving as an AC

[rockyroad]

And in the very first part of the OP, he himself says "..I 'SORTA' sinned". As if what he did wasn't really all that big of a deal.

Look - if the officials from that same game had come on the forum and posted the whole situation, a bunch of us would have been all over them for the mistakes they made. It would have been some of the same ones who are all over this guy. And it would have been deserved.

But having bad officials is not a reason or excuse for an AC to be an a$$.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Then let me clarify: My actions were wrong, not somewhat wrong. If you read into it that I was trying to justify those actions then it is only due to my poor typing/communication skill.
Why did I post it? Share experiences. I have no issue in admitting when I did something wrong. Believe it or not this is out of 'character" for me and I usually try to go the extra mile when on the bench. I obviously failed in this attempt and have actually gotten a few good ideas to put into my quiver in the future, both here on the board and some rather nice Private Messages and I am grateful for them and open for any more!
Learning by shared experience, what message boards were made for!

While I don't condone what you did I can say I understand. I started officiating as an undergrad then coached for several years in my early to mid 20s and still coach AAU in the summer. When I was younger I was probably a little more vocal and less forgiving than I should have been towards officials. I felt that because I knew the rules and had been trained by good officials that I had a right to hold officials doing my games to a high standard. And when they didnt meet that standard it was VERY frustrating.

As I've matured and gotten more into officiating and less into coaching I have found that I say very little to the officials when I am coaching. I realize that not all officials have had the same training I've had and that some just arent that good and nothing I say is really going to raise their level of officiating in that game. In fact, giving them a hard time will likely make it worse as they obviously are struggling to deal with the action in the game without having to worry about a coach.

I will still say a few things here and there and "work" an official like any good coach. But I always try to be respectful and will never try to show an official up. Coaching becomes very emotional once the competitive juices start flowing and I can only imagine that it's even more emotional coaching with your wife. But I do try to put myself in the officials shoes because regardless of what I think of their ability, I respect what it is we all do when we put on the uniform and step on the court.

I'm sure that I have done things as a coach or otherwise that if I posted for anyone to see online it would be easy for someone to form a negative opinion about me. So I'm not going to judge you based on one incident you decided to share on a message board and think it's a bit unfair to do so. I will say though that as an official and a coach, the coaches I respect the most are those that put 99.999% of their energy into coaching their kids. Trying to manipulate officials might get you a call here or there but in the long run it's never a good thing. Coach your kids and try to help the officials improve AFTER the game through the appropriate protocals.