I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You definitely wouldn't enjoy officiating football.

...possibly...but, as an ex-teacher/coach I LOVED coaching football. In fact, it was my favorite sport to coach.

Originally Posted by Indianaref

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

...Indianaref is talking about JR (Woddy)...you know this guy is going to have your back...I, like many here, would appreciate working for him.

I don't know...some people need a slap on the back (for a good job) and some people need a slap on the a$$ (for a bad job). I think JR, again like many here, will give you either one...it depends on what you need. I know I've had my share of spankings...and I hope I learned from them.

Jud...you've been spanked. Now, what you do with it depends on you.

[rsl]

Originally Posted by jurassic referee

for many, many years i've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc naso did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like judtech.you know mine. And i'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And i respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

+1

[Da Official]

Wow...great stuff! I hate that I have been working and missed getting in on the 9 pages of conversations.

1st of all....I personally THANK Judtech for bringing his personal experience to the Forum....a place where MOST of us (Officials and Coaches) come to learn about the game to become BETTER (Officials and Coaches). Some call it bragging some call it sharing....either way thanks for the story Jud!

2nd. There is a LOT that can be learned from Judtech's "bad night" so this was a very valuable discussion in my eyes.

3rd I have been officiating for a few years...and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

4th Let's not forget that Judtech was in the role of COACH not OFFICIAL during this game and he was within his coaching right to act an @zz if he wanted to. It is the job of the OFFICIAL to deal with coaches and players when they get out of line. They obviously didn't.

5th Everybody has a computer...so everybody has an opinion....just put my opinion with all the other 9 pages of rants I've just read...

Thanks everyone on your thoughts....this is what makes this gathering hole a great learning place....

Peace...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Seeing the biological father that I never saw has been lying in an Air Force military cemetary since 1944 after being KIA on his 30th mission, I really don't think your likening my detest for his actions as turning him into Hitler is very appropriate. I would never dream of making that particular comparison of anyone short of a mass murderer, let alone Judtech no matter how bad Judtech's actions might be in my mind. I detest Judtech's actions and I judged him on those alone. I don't know him as a person.

First and foremost, my comparison was admittedly over-the-top. I should have known better, and used a different comparison.

I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JUDTECH- "And yes it had the DESIRED affect of freezing their shooter as she procededed to miss her second shot".

That was a deliberate and admittedly planned unsporting act of intimidation to gain an advantage for his girls high school team. You rationalize it. I won't.

I'm not going to rationalize it, and I don't think he has either. He's stating his intention at the time of the act, not his thoughts afterwards.

One more thing on this point, it only worked to ice the shooter because the official pressed the issue. Once the official blew his whistle to tell the players to move back, the icing was completed.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't care how bad the officials are, there is NO excuse imo for behavior like that. If you're getting bad officiating, then complain about it using the appropriate and proper procedure.

Earlier this year, I had an extremely promising young official quit over similar actions from a coach. Deliberate acts to try and intimidate him. Good kid I'd know for years. Knew his father fairly well too. The kid was an outstanding high school player, played college ball while getting his degree and came back to this area to work. Now married with a young daughter. He did a little bit of officiating for us as a high school senior and during summers. He wanted to get involved with officiating again and I thought he had the potential to go to the college level. Now he's gone forever and our association...and basketball in our area.... are the poorer for it.

Can I forgive and forget? Nope. But I certainly can hope that the treatment that Judtech received here will stop him from repeating what he did in the future. And from his later posts, I think that it just might do that. At least maybe he'll think about it the next time he feels like going after officials.

This is perhaps the most salient point made in this thread. There's no place for intimidating tactics, to be sure. That's a coaching issue. From an official's perspective, what about training? I'm seeing this a serious lack of training manifest itself in this;
1. This guy didn't know basic stuff.
2. He didn't know how to properly deal with a mouthy AC.

Let me add, that it seems he knew right away it was inappropriate. This post refers to a practice that likely occurred before he read the comments on this thread:

Originally Posted by Judtech

As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We just have completely different perspectives, Snaqs. That's all I'm going to say.

Maybe, your perspective is that of a trainer/assigner who deals with the attrition that comes with the way officials are treated by some coaches and fans.

Mine is that of a younger official who's still learning this game. And while I'm not justifying or rationalizing his behavior which has effectively been shown to be lacking in sportsmanship, I don't think we should let these officials off the proverbial hook either. Granted, they're not here to defend themselves, but if nothing else, there's training to be done in how to effectively silence a mouthy AC.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Thank you.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Da Official

3rd I have been officiating for a few years...and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

Disagree. If that were the coach's job, then it wouldn't be explicitly prohibited by rule (10-4-1b).

IMO this myth more than most is harmful to good games.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Da Official

and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

he was within his coaching right to act an @zz if he wanted to.

Those are the conclusions you have come to??? Have you ever read the Coaches Code of Ethics put out by the NFHS?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

Jud admitted his goal for the whole "3 point line" incident was to ice the shooter. Had really only about 10% to do with principles and 90% to do with disrupting the game and making the official look bad.

I was the first one to call him all his behavior. And I stand by my original opinion that he was just being a jerk. That doesn't mean he's a jerk all the time. But that night he was.

What I take a bigger exception to is that he feels the need to fight the HC's battles. If the HC has a problem with any of the situations that occurred let her deal with the officials. Seeing as he is married to the HC Jud should be doing a better job of teaching her the rules so that she recognizes what is going on and so she can ask the correct questions of the officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Jud admitted his goal for the whole "3 point line" incident was to ice the shooter. Had really only about 10% to do with principles and 90% to do with disrupting the game and making the official look bad.

We know at some point icing the shooter came to mind. Whether that was his initial intent is not mentioned.
My guess: he had a hunch the official had this rule wrong and would take the bait.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I was the first one to call him all his behavior. And I stand by my original opinion that he was just being a jerk. That doesn't mean he's a jerk all the time. But that night he was.

I agree with this, and that's been my point. Telling a lie doesn't make a man a liar, and acting like a jerk during a game doesn't make him a jerk. Now, if he does this regularly, that's different. Then he's a jerk. But having read his posts for a while now (aside from this thread), I've had the distinct impression that this was a one-off night for him.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What I take a bigger exception to is that he feels the need to fight the HC's battles. If the HC has a problem with any of the situations that occurred let her deal with the officials. Seeing as he is married to the HC Jud should be doing a better job of teaching her the rules so that she recognizes what is going on and so she can ask the correct questions of the officials.

That's an issue for marital counseling, IMO.

I will say this, being an official, he should have known better. But I think he would agree with that. We all hope our better angels will come to our aid in situations like these, but it doesn't always happen.

[just another ref]

In discussions away from the game, over the years, I have advised coaches that it is not in their best interest to argue rules with an official. Chances are, the official knows the rule in question better than the coach, and if this is not the case, it is unlikely that the coach will change the official's mind at that point. I certainly would not be above asking in some cases: (proper tone, palms open) "Excuse me, Mr. Ref. Are you sure they're supposed to get 7 free throws plus the ball for this?" But the bottom line is, this is an argument you just about can't win. Kinda like arguing with a cop. He has a gun, you don't.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I was the first one to call him all his behavior. And I stand by my original opinion that he was just being a jerk. That doesn't mean he's a jerk all the time. But that night he was.

Our actions are the best guide to our character.

I believe that officials should bear this fact in mind at all times.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

First and foremost, my comparison was admittedly over-the-top. I should have known better, and used a different comparison.

I'm sorry.

Thank you....and appreciated, Snaqs.

No matter how mad I ever get with Judtech...rightly or wrongly on my part....I'd never dream of making that type of comparison of him. And if I was ever stoopid enough to unthinkingly do something like that, I'd apologize to him in a heartbeat.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

So you're calling him a liar?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So you're calling him a liar?

I am saying that when someone comes in with a story about what happened, and the "point" of the story is to tell us all how incompetent/wrong/stupid/whatever someone else is, I am generally rather skeptical that I am hearing the entire story, and do not draw any conclusions about how incompetent the "other" person really is, since it is rather likely that they would not agree with the facts as presented if they came along and read the account as written.

Does that mean that I think he is lying? Not really - but it doesn't mean I am going to assume he is telling the entire story either.

Take the bit about the official and the rolling ball. If we asked that official what happened on that play, would we get the same story? Would they really say "Yeah, the ball was rolling on the floor, and the player touched it, so I said that was posession!"

Maybe - but maybe not. Given the posters general attitude in the post in question, I am giving the unamed officials the benefit of the doubt.