Certified vs. non-certified

[SCalScoreKeeper]

It would be nice to have all table crews go through some level of training but lets be realistic.
A.The crews at many schools have worked together for several seasons and do a good solid job.There are only a handful of crews in our area who could be labeled as deficient.
B.The money ,in this time of budget-cutting, is not there to pay for area wide training for the table crew (clock/scoreboard operator,shot clock operator-if necessary, and varsity scorekeeper(s-if different for both teams)
C.That being said I choose to focus on the schools with deficient crews.

If I were the genie with a magic wand here is how I would handle this very good idea-

A.Referees are to work their games as normal with the standard pre-game talk.If there is a significant issue (such as scoreboard being wrong, clock being improperly started & stopped, scorebook being wrong...etc) a report shall be filed with the area association serving that school along with the appropriate state sanctioning body.

B.3 bad reports on a school's table crew at any level in a season will necessitate an email to that school's AD.Basically it would say "Your school's table has been found by our officials to be derelict in their duties on multiple occassions.Please remedy the situation in whichever way you see fit (changing personnel or review of the duties for the crew).

C.On the fourth bad report a school shall be required to attend a retraining course taught by the association's instructional chair (to be paid one varsity game fee plus $25.00-mileage and materials).If such an issue occurs during the playoffs visiting officials must submit a report to the host school's association along with the appropriate state association.Playoff schools with four bad reports during the regular season must attend re-training before being allowed to host postseason competition or give up their hosting rights.Schools missing the playoffs or earning their fourth report during postseason must go through training before submitting their master schedules to the assigner or lose their hosting rights for the following season.

Like I said this probably only applies to a handful of schools but it will force them to shape up and fly right or lose hosting privileges.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The question that was asked was "How long could it possibly take to become "certified" to be a clock operator."

you responded and I responded to that. It has (or had) nothing to do with "score and fouls."

If you're just doing team totals, then it also takes < 1 minute to learn (Home score +2; Visitor Fouls +1, etc).

I agree that if you're also tracking individual team members who are in the game and their points and fouls that it takes more practice.

Bob, the tracking of who is in the game & their point totals is only on the Daktronic boards which I've used only twice in the past 2 seasons at the 3A/4A Regionals (which thanks to WIAA will no longer be happening since they reformulated how state basketball is being done).

On the All-American board, all I have to keep track of on an individual is the number of fouls they have.

I've also used to operate a board with mechanized controls (switches & dials, not computerized) where all we did was track player fouls by asking the book what foul that was on the person.

So I've had experience with both setups, as well as the outdated.

[chseagle]

Actually everything you have said isn't such a bad idea. Every state & every local association should implement everything you said. This way everyone is actually on the same page.

Like stated in earlier posting elsewhere on the forum, concerning the AD, it is his/her responsibility to make sure that game management personnel be kept up to date on the rules/regulations that affect their position, this would be a great way to make sure that happens.

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

It would be nice to have all table crews go through some level of training but lets be realistic.
A.The crews at many schools have worked together for several seasons and do a good solid job.There are only a handful of crews in our area who could be labeled as deficient.
B.The money ,in this time of budget-cutting, is not there to pay for area wide training for the table crew (clock/scoreboard operator,shot clock operator-if necessary, and varsity scorekeeper(s-if different for both teams)
C.That being said I choose to focus on the schools with deficient crews.

If I were the genie with a magic wand here is how I would handle this very good idea-

A.Referees are to work their games as normal with the standard pre-game talk.If there is a significant issue (such as scoreboard being wrong, clock being improperly started & stopped, scorebook being wrong...etc) a report shall be filed with the area association serving that school along with the appropriate state sanctioning body.

B.3 bad reports on a school's table crew at any level in a season will necessitate an email to that school's AD.Basically it would say "Your school's table has been found by our officials to be derelict in their duties on multiple occassions.Please remedy the situation in whichever way you see fit (changing personnel or review of the duties for the crew).

C.On the fourth bad report a school shall be required to attend a retraining course taught by the association's instructional chair (to be paid one varsity game fee plus $25.00-mileage and materials).If such an issue occurs during the playoffs visiting officials must submit a report to the host school's association along with the appropriate state association.Playoff schools with four bad reports during the regular season must attend re-training before being allowed to host postseason competition or give up their hosting rights.Schools missing the playoffs or earning their fourth report during postseason must go through training before submitting their master schedules to the assigner or lose their hosting rights for the following season.

Like I said this probably only applies to a handful of schools but it will force them to shape up and fly right or lose hosting privileges.

[Adam]

Again, the number of crews who can't handle this is so small that it's not really a problem. If a call to the AD doesn't solve the problem, I doubt any sort of remedial training is going to solve it.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, the number of crews who can't handle this is so small that it's not really a problem. If a call to the AD doesn't solve the problem, I doubt any sort of remedial training is going to solve it.

For me. I've had no coaching/training from the AD, I've been teaching myself what I need to know. Although it would be nice if I did have another source to turn to, besides on here, for the rules/regulations & training.

I do agree that the number is small where there are significant incidents that do cause questioning to happen.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

For me. I've had no coaching/training from the AD, I've been teaching myself what I need to know. Although it would be nice if I did have another source to turn to, besides on here, for the rules/regulations & training.

I do agree that the number is small where there are significant incidents that do cause questioning to happen.

I think you misunderstood me. By "a call to the AD," I meant from the officials if there's a problem. This is one of those jobs the AD is only going to think about if there's a problem. He expects it to run smoothly because it's not rocket surgery (or brain science).
If there's a problem, the officials should contact the AD through their proper channels and let him perform any necessary remedial training (or have it done by a designee).

If the AD won't take care of the problem, then having some remedial training in place isn't going to solve it either; and your clock operator is likely the least of your worries for that game. I'd be willing to bet the other duties (game management) aren't being performed adequately either.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think you misunderstood me. By "a call to the AD," I meant from the officials if there's a problem. This is one of those jobs the AD is only going to think about if there's a problem. He expects it to run smoothly because it's not rocket surgery (or brain science).
If there's a problem, the officials should contact the AD through their proper channels and let him perform any necessary remedial training (or have it done by a designee).

If the AD won't take care of the problem, then having some remedial training in place isn't going to solve it either; and your clock operator is likely the least of your worries for that game. I'd be willing to bet the other duties (game management) aren't being performed adequately either.

Concerning the AD or other game management personnel, when I am at the table, rarely is the AD or other non-table game management there watching every move I do.

However when I'm not working at the table, the table is being carefully watched.

From my experience the AD that was here a couple of years ago had a better sense of what needed to be done than the current one.

So basically, if there was a problem with table operations the remedial training would have to be done by someone outside the school/school district.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning the AD or other game management personnel, when I am at the table, rarely is the AD or other non-table game management there watching every move I do.

However when I'm not working at the table, the table is being carefully watched.

From my experience the AD that was here a couple of years ago had a better sense of what needed to be done than the current one.

So basically, if there was a problem with table operations the remedial training would have to be done by someone outside the school/school district.

Okay, let me clarify again. The only way I'm addressing anything with the AD regardign the crew during the game is if they're being biased and beligerent; or just plain not paying attention. And then it's going to be to ask for a replacement.
Anything less than replacing them in game, I'll get word to him later, after I'm home, through the channels approved by my local association. He'll deal with it after the fact, not during the game.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, let me clarify again. The only way I'm addressing anything with the AD regardign the crew during the game is if they're being biased and beligerent; or just plain not paying attention. And then it's going to be to ask for a replacement.
Anything less than replacing them in game, I'll get word to him later, after I'm home, through the channels approved by my local association. He'll deal with it after the fact, not during the game.

Snaq, I knew what you were meaning.

Concerning not paying attention, especially since majority of my games are sub-varsity, I have to deal with that basically every game. Hence one reason why I've changed the table setup around when I am working as timer.

Also before the game or during dead ball periods I'll remind those that are disrupting the table that trying to work & need to focus on the game.

I really wish there were only 3 people at the table & not 4. However, I know that'll never happen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I really wish there were only 3 people at the table & not 4.

There's only one person needed when you're there.

SUPER CHSEAGLE!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I really wish there were only 3 people at the table & not 4. However, I know that'll never happen.

So do the other three people.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So do the other three people.

OUCH! lol

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Concerning the AD or other game management personnel, when I am at the table, rarely is the AD or other non-table game management there watching every move I do.

However when I'm not working at the table, the table is being carefully watched.

From my experience the AD that was here a couple of years ago had a better sense of what needed to be done than the current one.

So basically, if there was a problem with table operations the remedial training would have to be done by someone outside the school/school district.

And I wonder who is watching the table when you're not working.....???

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's only one person needed when you're there.

SUPER CHSEAGLE!

Reminds me of Superhost!

[SCalScoreKeeper]

But doesn't everyone agree that there should be some consequence for table apathy/ineptitude such as losing your hosting privileges for the postseason or following year? Without that threat of lost revenue (ticket and snack bar sales) hanging over a school's head AD's can just leave the same mediocre crew in there without being asked to fix a problem.

We don't allow students to play if they are academically (or otherwise)ineligible-if they do that school needs to forefeit immediately.Why should we allow a school to host home games if their support team is not up to the task? What I propose-as highly unlikely as it is-if adopted makes schools accountable for the actions of their table crews.