Certified vs. non-certified

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

That can depend on the scoreboard controls being used & the person's knowledge of the game.

The switch is either "on" or "off". It can't take more than 15 seconds to learn how to switch between the two positions.

"Start the clock when someone inbounds touches the ball. Stop it when the whistle blows. Any questions? Let's review -- when will you start the clock on the jump ball?"

Repeat if needed.

Total time less than 1 minute.

There aren't that many (any?) exceptions or unusual circumstances to learn.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Start the clock when someone inbounds touches the ball.

Except on a successful free throw.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Stop it when the whistle blows.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The switch is either "on" or "off". It can't take more than 15 seconds to learn how to switch between the two positions.

"Start the clock when someone inbounds touches the ball. Stop it when the whistle blows. Any questions? Let's review -- when will you start the clock on the jump ball?"

Repeat if needed.

Total time less than 1 minute.

There aren't that many (any?) exceptions or unusual circumstances to learn.

Yes, it's really that easy just to do time on the scoreboard, however I was also meaning doing score & fouls on the scoreboard. Each manufacturer has a different setup for their board's controls.

So far, I've used scoreboard controls from 2 manufacturers (All-American Scoreboards & Daktronics). There are differences between the two boards on the control schemes.

For the Daktronics board scheme that I used last, in order for points to be on the board 1st we had to press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3 depending on the point value of the shot) then using the numerical keypad we had to input the player's number. Same thing for the fouls. (The Daktronics Board automatically kept track of the player points (as well as overall team score, player fouls, & team fouls)). When there were subs there were a couple of options.

For the All-American Scoreboard scheme at CHS that I use throughout the season, all we do for points is press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3). For fouls, 1st we have to press player foul, input player number, enter, foul number, enter, then we have to press team foul, foul number, enter. For the All-American Board everything had to be inputted.

So yes being timer can be easy, yet it can also be hard, if a person doesn't know what they're doing.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So yes being timer can be easy, yet it can also be hard, if a person doesn't know what they're doing.

In which case he has no business sitting behind the table.

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Yes, it's really that easy just to do time on the scoreboard, however I was also meaning doing score & fouls on the scoreboard. Each manufacturer has a different setup for their board's controls.

So far, I've used scoreboard controls from 2 manufacturers (All-American Scoreboards & Daktronics). There are differences between the two boards on the control schemes.

For the Daktronics board scheme that I used last, in order for points to be on the board 1st we had to press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3 depending on the point value of the shot) then using the numerical keypad we had to input the player's number. Same thing for the fouls. (The Daktronics Board automatically kept track of the player points (as well as overall team score, player fouls, & team fouls)). When there were subs there were a couple of options.

For the All-American Scoreboard scheme at CHS that I use throughout the season, all we do for points is press Pts. +1 (or +2 or +3). For fouls, 1st we have to press player foul, input player number, enter, foul number, enter, then we have to press team foul, foul number, enter. For the All-American Board everything had to be inputted.

So yes being timer can be easy, yet it can also be hard, if a person doesn't know what they're doing.

In the grand scheme of things, keeping track of fouls and score, while a major convenience for everyone involved, is secondary to correct timing. The first thing I'm worried about the TIMER doing is...well keeping time. Second would be score just cause you'll have the coaches and players going crazy if the score is wrong on the board. The rest is just gravy.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

In the grand scheme of things, keeping track of fouls and score, while a major convenience for everyone involved, is secondary to correct timing. The first thing I'm worried about the TIMER doing is...well keeping time. Second would be score just cause you'll have the coaches and players going crazy if the score is wrong on the board. The rest is just gravy.

Very true about all of the above.

For me it's easy to do all of the above, then of course I am in constant communication with the scorer about the score & the fouls (which as listed below, I have to tell them who scored or fouled at times).

Yes it's a convenience to have the score & fouls posted. However since majority of the games I do are sub-Varsity, sometimes the scoreboard is the most accurate on both the score & the fouls, especially if the scorer is a snot-nosed kid off the street.

[lpneck]

This is a huge issue in our state.

Scoreboard operators for games from the 7th grade and up must belong to the Registry of Qualified Official Timers Association. (RoQOTA)

RoQOTA has essentially unionized the position, and timers receive $35 for middle school games, $50 for sub-varsity games, and $75 for varsity games.

They also have an exclusivity clause with the state association that they must work with Daktronic scoreboards.

Schools may request a waiver from the state in order to use non-Daktronic scoreboards, but must pay a fine of $500 to RoQOTA for doing so.

It is not uncommon for games to be forfeited in this area at the beginning of the season because the timer is either uncertified, or the school has the wrong company's scoreboard and has not paid the fine. This will likely happen even more so with financial cuts that are being implemented at many schools.

An unintended consequence of this has also been that it is getting harder and harder for schools to find qualified official scorers, as that is not a certified position, and many of the workers who used to do that job now hold out for the better paying timing jobs and the prestige of being a member of RoQOTA.

I have seen quite a bit of resentment between timers and scorers where the scorer will say things to the timer such as "that is team A's fifth foul," and the timer will respond "you aren't authorized or qualifed to tell me what I need to put on the scoreboard."

I have heard rumors of the scorers are attempting to organize an association as well, but it seems that they have not been able to get on the same page, and can not agree on an exclusivity deal with a scorebook company such as Mark V or Score-Right, because there are so many different books out there.

It should be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year or two.

[Adam]

You're kidding, right?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by lpneck

This is a huge issue in our state.

Scoreboard operators for games from the 7th grade and up must belong to the Registry of Qualified Official Timers Association. (RoQOTA)

RoQOTA has essentially unionized the position, and timers receive $35 for middle school games, $50 for sub-varsity games, and $75 for varsity games.

They also have an exclusivity clause with the state association that they must work with Daktronic scoreboards.

Schools may request a waiver from the state in order to use non-Daktronic scoreboards, but must pay a fine of $500 to RoQOTA for doing so.

It is not uncommon for games to be forfeited in this area at the beginning of the season because the timer is either uncertified, or the school has the wrong company's scoreboard and has not paid the fine. This will likely happen even more so with financial cuts that are being implemented at many schools.

An unintended consequence of this has also been that it is getting harder and harder for schools to find qualified official scorers, as that is not a certified position, and many of the workers who used to do that job now hold out for the better paying timing jobs and the prestige of being a member of RoQOTA.

I have seen quite a bit of resentment between timers and scorers where the scorer will say things to the timer such as "that is team A's fifth foul," and the timer will respond "you aren't authorized or qualifed to tell me what I need to put on the scoreboard."

I have heard rumors of the scorers are attempting to organize an association as well, but it seems that they have not been able to get on the same page, and can not agree on an exclusivity deal with a scorebook company such as Mark V or Score-Right, because there are so many different books out there.

It should be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year or two.

Ok first off, what state is this in & who came up with this hare brained idea?

2nd, what type of training must they go through in order to be certified?

I feel sorry for the schools to have to shell out so much money for a position that I'm willing to do at only $10 a game.

However from my experience with the Daktronic boards, I like them far better than the All-American Scoreboards, even though there's a bit more to operating them.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Ok first off, what state is this in & who came up with this hare brained idea?

I think you did.

[APG]

Originally Posted by lpneck

This is a huge issue in our state.

Scoreboard operators for games from the 7th grade and up must belong to the Registry of Qualified Official Timers Association. (RoQOTA)

RoQOTA has essentially unionized the position, and timers receive $35 for middle school games, $50 for sub-varsity games, and $75 for varsity games.

They also have an exclusivity clause with the state association that they must work with Daktronic scoreboards.

Schools may request a waiver from the state in order to use non-Daktronic scoreboards, but must pay a fine of $500 to RoQOTA for doing so.

It is not uncommon for games to be forfeited in this area at the beginning of the season because the timer is either uncertified, or the school has the wrong company's scoreboard and has not paid the fine. This will likely happen even more so with financial cuts that are being implemented at many schools.

An unintended consequence of this has also been that it is getting harder and harder for schools to find qualified official scorers, as that is not a certified position, and many of the workers who used to do that job now hold out for the better paying timing jobs and the prestige of being a member of RoQOTA.

I have seen quite a bit of resentment between timers and scorers where the scorer will say things to the timer such as "that is team A's fifth foul," and the timer will respond "you aren't authorized or qualifed to tell me what I need to put on the scoreboard."

I have heard rumors of the scorers are attempting to organize an association as well, but it seems that they have not been able to get on the same page, and can not agree on an exclusivity deal with a scorebook company such as Mark V or Score-Right, because there are so many different books out there.

It should be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year or two.

Time to hang up the whistle and start some timing!

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Time to hang up the whistle and start some timing!

Yeah whatever state that is, it seems to pay more to be a timer than a floor official, now that does suck.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Yes, it's really that easy just to do time on the scoreboard, however I was also meaning doing score & fouls on the scoreboard.

The question that was asked was "How long could it possibly take to become "certified" to be a clock operator."

you responded and I responded to that. It has (or had) nothing to do with "score and fouls."

If you're just doing team totals, then it also takes < 1 minute to learn (Home score +2; Visitor Fouls +1, etc).

I agree that if you're also tracking individual team members who are in the game and their points and fouls that it takes more practice.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

It would be nice to have all table crews go through some level of training but lets be realistic.
A.The crews at many schools have worked together for several seasons and do a good solid job.There are only a handful of crews in our area who could be labeled as deficient.
B.The money ,in this time of budget-cutting, is not there to pay for area wide training for the table crew (clock/scoreboard operator,shot clock operator-if necessary, and varsity scorekeeper(s-if different for both teams)
C.That being said I choose to focus on the schools with deficient crews.

If I were the genie with a magic wand here is how I would handle this very good idea-

A.Referees are to work their games as normal with the standard pre-game talk.If there is a significant issue (such as scoreboard being wrong, clock being improperly started & stopped, scorebook being wrong...etc) a report shall be filed with the area association serving that school along with the appropriate state sanctioning body.

B.3 bad reports on a school's table crew at any level in a season will necessitate an email to that school's AD.Basically it would say "Your school's table has been found by our officials to be derelict in their duties on multiple occassions.Please remedy the situation in whichever way you see fit (changing personnel or review of the duties for the crew).

C.On the fourth bad report a school shall be required to attend a retraining course taught by the association's instructional chair (to be paid one varsity game fee plus $25.00-mileage and materials).If such an issue occurs during the playoffs visiting officials must submit a report to the host school's association along with the appropriate state association.Playoff schools with four bad reports during the regular season must attend re-training before being allowed to host postseason competition or give up their hosting rights.Schools missing the playoffs or earning their fourth report during postseason must go through training before submitting their master schedules to the assigner or lose their hosting rights for the following season.

Like I said this probably only applies to a handful of schools but it will force them to shape up and fly right or lose hosting privileges.

[chseagle]

Actually everything you have said isn't such a bad idea. Every state & every local association should implement everything you said. This way everyone is actually on the same page.

Like stated in earlier posting elsewhere on the forum, concerning the AD, it is his/her responsibility to make sure that game management personnel be kept up to date on the rules/regulations that affect their position, this would be a great way to make sure that happens.

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

It would be nice to have all table crews go through some level of training but lets be realistic.
A.The crews at many schools have worked together for several seasons and do a good solid job.There are only a handful of crews in our area who could be labeled as deficient.
B.The money ,in this time of budget-cutting, is not there to pay for area wide training for the table crew (clock/scoreboard operator,shot clock operator-if necessary, and varsity scorekeeper(s-if different for both teams)
C.That being said I choose to focus on the schools with deficient crews.

If I were the genie with a magic wand here is how I would handle this very good idea-

A.Referees are to work their games as normal with the standard pre-game talk.If there is a significant issue (such as scoreboard being wrong, clock being improperly started & stopped, scorebook being wrong...etc) a report shall be filed with the area association serving that school along with the appropriate state sanctioning body.

B.3 bad reports on a school's table crew at any level in a season will necessitate an email to that school's AD.Basically it would say "Your school's table has been found by our officials to be derelict in their duties on multiple occassions.Please remedy the situation in whichever way you see fit (changing personnel or review of the duties for the crew).

C.On the fourth bad report a school shall be required to attend a retraining course taught by the association's instructional chair (to be paid one varsity game fee plus $25.00-mileage and materials).If such an issue occurs during the playoffs visiting officials must submit a report to the host school's association along with the appropriate state association.Playoff schools with four bad reports during the regular season must attend re-training before being allowed to host postseason competition or give up their hosting rights.Schools missing the playoffs or earning their fourth report during postseason must go through training before submitting their master schedules to the assigner or lose their hosting rights for the following season.

Like I said this probably only applies to a handful of schools but it will force them to shape up and fly right or lose hosting privileges.