after patient whistle

[Jesse James]

Cause A1 to get to the hoop a bit slower?

[tref]

And not get off the ground as high as he/she could have.

That would be a tough call to make, it could be sold with some verbal at the spot & strong mechnics though...

[Adam]

It wouldn't have a hard time selling it because I wouldn't try. I don't think I've ever seen a bump like that slow a player down that much, so I can't imagine B2 getting to a shot he obviously wouldn't have gotten to otherwise. If the slow down is that significant, I'll get the initial bump sooner.

[rsl]

This is why I am still learning "patient whistle".

I had another call last night where I passed on a bump because the ball handler had a wide open jumper, which he missed. I don't think the bump was the cause, but it is a judgment call.

That's why they pay us the big bucks... Wait, I forgot I volunteered last night!

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several years ago, in my first ever varsity game, I had a play near the division line in which A1 (with the ball) was bumped by B1. I waited, A1 wobbled, I waited, A1 stepped illegally. I called the foul. It took just a couple of seconds, but by the time I called the foul, B1 was about 10 feet away. I'd do it again the same way.

The most common one is your scenario, where the bump does absolutely nothing and if you call it, you're taking away a layup. I've made the call and taken crap from the coach for taking his layup away. I've passed on the call and taken crap only to have the coach agree with me when I told him why I passed on the contact.

I am in the same stage as the OP. And, have used the same approach as you outlined in your experience, Snaq. All I can say is, this is the stuff that makes what we do so much fun. It's hard to beat working in concert with your partner on both ends and using a patient whistle. It's especially evident when a coach or player or fan freaks about a "late call" and you and your partner(s) KNOW you got it right because seeing the play through is higher level decision making.

Good good stuff.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rsl

...
If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple calls, I get to pick which one, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Don't know what you mean by this. You deemed the first contact incidental, so that play is over and done with. Then you have subsequent contact and you judge it a foul.

[rsl]

If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple contact, I get to pick which ones are real and which ones are incidental, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Fixed it. Didn't say it very well the first time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

And if B2 swoops out of nowhere to cleanly swat the "easy" lay-up? Now do you whistle the initial bump?

Originally Posted by Jesse James

Cause A1 to get to the hoop a bit slower?

How could you do that to Sandra Bullock, America's Sweetheart?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How could you do that to Sandra Bullock, America's Sweetheart?

According to the papers at the supermarket, he was an 11-timer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

According to the papers at the supermarket, he was an 11-timer.

Shooting for the Master's record?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Papers at the supermarket.

Great source of information. That's where I get all my answers to basketball rules questions posted here on the Forum.

[Tio]

I agree with other posters that the first bump would be considered marginal contact and should be a no call.

Coaches at the High School & Collegiate level don't understand the idea of "habitual shooting motion." Part of the reason why they don't understand is that even at the top levels of NCAA basketball, we see play after play where shooting fouls are blown on the floor by respected veteran officials.

We are starting to see the new wave of NCAA basketball leadership (John Adams, Dave Libbey) being vocal about recognizing when the habitual motion begins, so I expect all of us to get better in this regard and in turn gain buy-in from the coaches.

The key to it all is a patient whistle. If you blow too early, you risk marginal and-ones that can screw up the flow of your game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

I agree with other posters that the first bump would be considered marginal contact and should be a no call.

"marginal" should be restated as "incidental."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"marginal" should be restated as "incidental."

+1

Too much confusion is created if used in that context. Marginal contact may or may not be a foul, by rule. Severe contact may or may not be a foul, by rule. Incidental contact is never a foul, by rule. And of course, illegal contact is always a foul, by rule.

What an official has to determine is whether the contact should be deemed either "incidental" or "illegal".

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"marginal" should be restated as "incidental."

So what if an opponents teammate pushes him into an airborne shooter? its "incidental" according to definition?? but the contact is not marginal, so......

Whether its an incident or an accident, illegal contact is illegal contact. I can jump non vertical and see that i'm illegal and draw my hands back in a "im not trying to foul" manner but that doesn't forgo the fact that my trajectory is still illegal, incident or not.

I think we get to hung up on marginal and incidental. If you use either I know what you mean, as does everyone else. I was just trying to make a point with the above. No offense