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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 12:07pm
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I've been reading a recent thread on "Patient Whistle".

What it advocates is that in order to determine advantage/disadvantage prior to whistling a foul you should wait for the total play to un-fold.

If you determine that an offensive player was not put at a disadvantage by the foul, then you don't whistle.

I'd like people's opinion on:

1) If you apply this rule, then doesn't it mean that you would never have a "and 1" scenario. If you wait for the play to unfold, the basket would be scored, therefore there's no way a player would've been at a disadvantage (with the exception of a hard foul of course).

2) Aren't you asking from it from the fans and the coaches. You hear it all the time "late whistle ref ... you weren't sure were you???".

Jean

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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jforgues
1) If you apply this rule, then doesn't it mean that you would never have a "and 1" scenario. If you wait for the play to unfold, the basket would be scored, therefore there's no way a player would've been at a disadvantage (with the exception of a hard foul of course).
Not at all Jean. The rules state that if the contact does not prevent a player from committing normal offensive movement. If the shot goes up and the follow thru or the landing is not affected by the contact, you should pass on the call and rule the contact incidental.

Quote:
Originally posted by jforgues
2) Aren't you asking from it from the fans and the coaches. You hear it all the time "late whistle ref ... you weren't sure were you???".
I do not care what the fans think. Most camps I have attended clearly want the officials to see the beginning, middle and end of a play. So if you call a hand check when a dribbler is going to the hole, you might be taking away a very easy basket if you just blow the whistle at the first sign of contact. I have even in plays like this asked the coach, "Do you want the basket or the foul on the sideline?" They always say they would rather have the basket.

Peace
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 12:30pm
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1) It just means to let the play develop a bit rather than having a reactionary whistle. Instead of blowing the whistle and then admonishing yourself for having a quick one, delay a bit and see if the whistle was really necessary. Don't penalize the offense with a whistle that stops play and prevents them from getting an easy bucket. You still have some and-one's, just not so many and not ticky-tack ones.

2) What the fans say matters none. The better you become as a ref, the bigger distance you will put between what you know and what they know.

Z
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge


Not at all Jean. The rules state that if the contact does not prevent a player from committing normal offensive movement. If the shot goes up and the follow thru or the landing is not affected by the contact, you should pass on the call and rule the contact incidental.
So what you're saying is that if the contact does prevent a normal offensive movement, then you call the foul and 1. For example, player A1 shoots, player B1 does a solid hit on the arm of player A1, balls goes in, you should call the foul. Correct?

If the hit is soft and the ball goes in, then no foul.

If the hit is soft and the ball does not go in, then is there a foul?



Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not care what the fans think. Most camps I have attended clearly want the officials to see the beginning, middle and end of a play. So if you call a hand check when a dribbler is going to the hole, you might be taking away a very easy basket if you just blow the whistle at the first sign of contact. I have even in plays like this asked the coach, "Do you want the basket or the foul on the sideline?" They always say they would rather have the basket.
100% agree with your statement.

thanks for your reply
cheers,
Mr. Jean
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 12:58pm
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My old signature line used to read:

"anticipate the play but not the call"

That was before I started watching Simpsons' re-runs during supper. But I digress.

Patient whistle:

1. See the whole play.
2. Wait for the whole play to develop.
3. Evaluate the contact.
4. Ask yourself "can I pass on this?"
5. Make your decision on whether to blow the whistle.

If you do this, you will have the quick whistle when you need it, and you will avoid those calls you wish you could take back.

Bottom line: coaches will occasionally complain about a late whistle. But they will ALWAYS complain about a ticky-tack call - and they should.
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jforgues


So what you're saying is that if the contact does prevent a normal offensive movement, then you call the foul and 1. For example, player A1 shoots, player B1 does a solid hit on the arm of player A1, balls goes in, you should call the foul. Correct?

If the hit is soft and the ball goes in, then no foul.

If the hit is soft and the ball does not go in, then is there a foul?
No, that is not what I am saying. Just because the shot goes in does not mean we should pass on the foul. If the follow thru on the shot is obstructed then I have a foul. If the contact that was caused by the offensive player, I have no foul. If the contact was caused by the defensive player and the shooter cannot land properly or their follow-thru was obstructed, I have a foul. The hardness of the contact is not relevant in my opinion. Sometimes the contact is very slight and you still have a contact. I just think you cannot get caught up in how hard the contact is and call fouls just based on the severity of contact. Contact can clearly be very severe (rulebook language not my own language) and still not be a foul.

I hope that helps.
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 01:20pm
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In most cases, for me anyway, the timing has nothing to do with being fouled in the act of shooting. Usually it occurs before the shooting motion begins, so we are waiting to see if A can play through the contact and shoot or pass to an open teammate.

As for comments about late whistles, my favorite is, "Yeah, it was late, but it was right."

Keep in mind that good officiating philosophies require that some calls be made late. Patient and secondary whistles will always be timed a bit differently than the obvious foul in your primary. Strong mechanics and voice go a long way in preventing complaints about late whistles.

You use a strong whistle, close in and vocalize and most times you will hear very little.
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Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 11:16pm
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Jean the idea is to avoid the ticky-tack foul calls, especially on the made basket. These happen to me mostly when I see a little contact and blow the whistle immediately, without seeing how much it affects the shooter. A good defender can make a little contact, but then back off a little, and the shooter isn't put at an illegal disadvantage. If you blow the whistle right when the first contact happens, you might be giving a chintzy "And-1". Especially at the higher levels of play, a lot of shooters can "play through" and don't need a foul called on every little bump. Remember, though, that a good solid foul still needs to be called, even if the ball goes in.
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 04:38am
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1) player up
2) player down
3) basket interference
4) goaltending
5) look at rebounding
That is some of the things I learned this weekend.
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 08:33am
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I heard the patient whistle concept explained this way this summer; "see the result of the contact and not just the contact". That has helped me alot.

Regarding fans comments, we've all made the most obvious call of the night and still heard it from the fans so forget them.
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 10:01am
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With regard to a "late" whistle, my comment to a coach is usually either that I was hoping to avoid calling a foul on HIS player or simply, "late, but great."
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 10:29am
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I like all the comments presented but one thing I want to stress is the concept of consistency and bring attention to the POE on rough play. Particularly with respect to the amount of contact you deem to be harmless or not a "whistleable" offense.

Many times officials will allow levels of contact that do nothing but increase the level of physical play to a feverpitch. This is a result of simple poor judgement in what is deemed to be a foul. A patient whistle is one thing but passing on contact just because a player was able to play through it, did not end up on the floor, or the 3rd row is nonesense. Their was a POE on agressive and rough play!!!!

Many times I see guys that have to tighten up their calls in the second half or the 4th quarter just to regain control of the game because of all the calls they passed on. This lack of consistency brings undersireable consequences. It's not just a coach screaming for a call, or the howling from the fans but you cannot ignore the safety of the players. There was a reason for the POE and I surmise in large part due to the fact that too much contact is being ignored when it should be called.

I guess experience will have to be your guide in knowing WHAT is a foul and WHAT can/should be passed on.



[Edited by Robmoz on Jul 21st, 2005 at 11:40 AM]
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 10:38am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robmoz
I like all the comments presented but one thing I want to stress is the concept of consistency and bring attention to the POE on rough play.
You make a good point, Chris, but I don't think it's germane to this particular thread. We're not talking about post play, which is where most rough play develops. We're talking about being patient on a drive to the basket or on an outside jumper.

Not taking anything away from your point, b/c I don't think anyone would disagree with you.
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 10:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
I have even in plays like this asked the coach, "Do you want the basket or the foul on the sideline?" They always say they would rather have the basket.[/B]
This is not true. I have had coaches say that they want the foul, particularly if it's the opposing team's star.

"Coach, your player was still able to blow by the defender."
"Coach, your player was still able to get to the basket."
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Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 11:02am
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You are right Chuck, the post play may be the primary area of reference (even in the POE). I wanted to bring attention to the drive to the basket and the handchecking as well. I see way too much contact being passed on even though the offensive player gets through it. Consistency in the application of what is legal vs. illegal contact should not be overshawdowed by the risk of the ticky-tack or chintzy moniker of a call.

Having said that, I prefer to run a tight game so that I am not forced to make significant adjustments. I do not get complaints from AD's, evaluators, or assigners quite the contrary. As a result, when I have a patient whistle or delayed whistle call I do not have to sell anything because I have been consistent in my applications.
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