after patient whistle

[rsl]

A1 gets bumps by B1 going to the hoop, but he is going to score an easy layup so I hold the whistle. Then, at the last moment B1 fouls a little harder and prevents the basket. I blow the whistle and give A1 two shots.

Coach B is upset. He saw the early bump and wants the foul before the shot.

If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple calls, I get to pick which one, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

A1 gets bumps by B1 going to the hoop, but he is going to score an easy layup so I hold the whistle. Then, at the last moment B1 fouls a little harder and prevents the basket. I blow the whistle and give A1 two shots.

Coach B is upset. He saw the early bump and wants the foul before the shot.

If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple calls, I get to pick which one, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Here's the thing, if the first "bump" didn't prevent A1 from getting his easy layup, it wasn't a foul; it was incidental contact.

[grunewar]

I might consider the first bump incidental contact which didn't cause an advantage for B1, yet the second contact definitely caused the advantage and hence the missed shot - TWEET!

Snaqs types faster than me.....

[mbyron]

Who cares about Coach B? If you judged that the initial contact was not a foul, stick to your guns, man!

"Coach, I saw the contact and judged that it was incidental. We're shooting two."

[Adam]

Also, if he presses it and it's summer ball, I might suggest he find a rule book and look up the definitions of "foul" and "incidental contact."

Nah, I'd just say "first contact wasn't a foul." Then get the ball in play and move on if the coach lets you. If he doesn't, we get to shoot two more free throws.

[rsl]

Actually, the coach was not a big problem (though my post makes it sound like it)- he accepted my explanation.

I am still learning this whole patient whistle thing, and it is improving my game.

Sometimes, patient whistle means calling something incidental because you can see how it is going to turn out. Other times, patient whistle means a delayed call while you wait to see how it turns out. I am still working on when each one is right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rsl

Actually, the coach was not a big problem (though my post makes it sound like it)- he accepted my explanation.

I am still learning this whole patient whistle thing, and it is improving my game.

Sometimes, patient whistle means calling something incidental because you can see how it is going to turn out. Other times, patient whistle means a delayed call while you wait to see how it turns out. I am still working on when each one is right.

Several years ago, in my first ever varsity game, I had a play near the division line in which A1 (with the ball) was bumped by B1. I waited, A1 wobbled, I waited, A1 stepped illegally. I called the foul. It took just a couple of seconds, but by the time I called the foul, B1 was about 10 feet away. I'd do it again the same way.

The most common one is your scenario, where the bump does absolutely nothing and if you call it, you're taking away a layup. I've made the call and taken crap from the coach for taking his layup away. I've passed on the call and taken crap only to have the coach agree with me when I told him why I passed on the contact.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several years ago, in my first ever varsity game, I had a play near the division line in which A1 (with the ball) was bumped by B1. I waited, A1 wobbled, I waited, A1 stepped illegally. I called the foul. It took just a couple of seconds, but by the time I called the foul, B1 was about 10 feet away. I'd do it again the same way.

The most common one is your scenario, where the bump does absolutely nothing and if you call it, you're taking away a layup. I've made the call and taken crap from the coach for taking his layup away. I've passed on the call and taken crap only to have the coach agree with me when I told him why I passed on the contact.

I am in the same stage as the OP. And, have used the same approach as you outlined in your experience, Snaq. All I can say is, this is the stuff that makes what we do so much fun. It's hard to beat working in concert with your partner on both ends and using a patient whistle. It's especially evident when a coach or player or fan freaks about a "late call" and you and your partner(s) KNOW you got it right because seeing the play through is higher level decision making.

Good good stuff.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rsl

Sometimes, patient whistle means calling something incidental because you can see how it is going to turn out.

Sounds like anticipating a call. Incidental is not a foul, by rule. Care to elaborate?

[rsl]

I mean that incidental depends on what happens and skill level. If the bump in the OP had caused the dribbler to lose the ball, it would not be incidental. But, it didn't and he was still on track for his layup, so it was incidental.

[bainsey]

Always consider the coach's angle. He likely wouldn't have asked for that foul on the first contact had the second one not been called.

If you found the first not to be advantageous contact, simply say so.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rsl

...
If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple calls, I get to pick which one, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Don't know what you mean by this. You deemed the first contact incidental, so that play is over and done with. Then you have subsequent contact and you judge it a foul.

[rsl]

If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple contact, I get to pick which ones are real and which ones are incidental, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Fixed it. Didn't say it very well the first time.

[Tio]

I agree with other posters that the first bump would be considered marginal contact and should be a no call.

Coaches at the High School & Collegiate level don't understand the idea of "habitual shooting motion." Part of the reason why they don't understand is that even at the top levels of NCAA basketball, we see play after play where shooting fouls are blown on the floor by respected veteran officials.

We are starting to see the new wave of NCAA basketball leadership (John Adams, Dave Libbey) being vocal about recognizing when the habitual motion begins, so I expect all of us to get better in this regard and in turn gain buy-in from the coaches.

The key to it all is a patient whistle. If you blow too early, you risk marginal and-ones that can screw up the flow of your game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

I agree with other posters that the first bump would be considered marginal contact and should be a no call.

"marginal" should be restated as "incidental."