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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 03:06pm
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I'd like a more patient whistle, but doing mostly sub-varsity games, it seems the coaches at that level want everything called. Their claim is "How can I teach them what is a foul if you don't call it." A player gets barely brushed on a drive to the basket, and right away the chorus of "AND ONE" starts.

I refereed soccer and they let play go if no advantage is gained, and they even have a signal for it (an upsweep of the arms), but how do you communicate to coaches "yes, I saw it...I didn't consider the contact harmful to your team or player, and I let play continue."

Playing advantage/disadvantage, in my opinion, elevates the game, keeps it flowing, and as long as the players and coaches understand, makes it a fun game. But how do you do that without coaches and players thinking "Good gosh, this guy misses everything."

I'd like some opinions, please
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 03:15pm
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Keeping in mind that advantage/disadvantage is a relative thing and differs from level to level, you really don't have to explain your judgement to anyone. I'm not quite as witty as some of the other seasoned officials in here, but I'm sure someone has a good catch-phrase if you absolutely feel the need to explain yourself. Call your game and don't worry what the coach thinks is a foul or not.

Unless of course the coach is in the stands....
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankHtown
I'd like a more patient whistle, but doing mostly sub-varsity games, it seems the coaches at that level want everything called. Their claim is "How can I teach them what is a foul if you don't call it." A player gets barely brushed on a drive to the basket, and right away the chorus of "AND ONE" starts.

I refereed soccer and they let play go if no advantage is gained, and they even have a signal for it (an upsweep of the arms), but how do you communicate to coaches "yes, I saw it...I didn't consider the contact harmful to your team or player, and I let play continue."

Playing advantage/disadvantage, in my opinion, elevates the game, keeps it flowing, and as long as the players and coaches understand, makes it a fun game. But how do you do that without coaches and players thinking "Good gosh, this guy misses everything."

I'd like some opinions, please
You are talking about three different things here. A patient whistle, IMHO, is always a good thing. That just means that you don't blow a quick whistle, anticipating a play, and then wish you hadn't made the call. It doesn't mean that you don't make the call, it just means that you let the play develop and give a few microseconds of thought before the "tweet."

The second thing you are talking about is coaches complaining. That just comes with the territory to a point and is often worse at lower levels. Some of it you can ignore, some of it will have to be dealt with through communicating with your coaches (and sometimes it may require a technical foul). This will come with experience and working on your interpersonal skills. There is no "play on" signal in basketball and it is generally frowned upon to use unapproved signals. You may be able to have quick conversations with the coaches throughout the games which may help. Sometimes they just want a quick acknowlegement.

The final thing you are talking about is judgment. Not all contact is a foul as you obviously know. Unfortunately, sometimes at the sub-varsity levels (especially for more unskilled teams), it is harder to get flow and let the players play through some contact. Again, you'll get more of a "feel" for how much contact can be allowed as you get more and more games under your belt.

Most of us went through the same things you are going through at those lower level games.

Z
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 03:35pm
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Unless he's asking for a foul call against his team, I would't put much stock in the "how can i teach them..." line. In either case, just let him know that when you see contact that creates any kind of advantage, you'll call it.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 04:47pm
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Just to chime in, the one thing that I've noticed is that at sub-varsity levels the more the coach whines at the officials, the more the players tend to use the officials as an excuse for failure. If the players know that the officials are gonna get the blame, it is easier for them to make and get away with mistakes by not learning from them. On these teams you see a larger propensity of players trying to "create" fouls to protect themselves from failure (i.e. initiating all the contact on shots) and then when they miss the shot the officials get blamed rather than the player. Coaches who allow this to happen tend to be in bad programs.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 06:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankHtown
I'd like a more patient whistle, but doing mostly sub-varsity games, it seems the coaches at that level want everything called. Their claim is "How can I teach them what is a foul if you don't call it." A player gets barely brushed on a drive to the basket, and right away the chorus of "AND ONE" starts.

I refereed soccer and they let play go if no advantage is gained, and they even have a signal for it (an upsweep of the arms), but how do you communicate to coaches "yes, I saw it...I didn't consider the contact harmful to your team or player, and I let play continue."

Playing advantage/disadvantage, in my opinion, elevates the game, keeps it flowing, and as long as the players and coaches understand, makes it a fun game. But how do you do that without coaches and players thinking "Good gosh, this guy misses everything."

I'd like some opinions, please
Coach says, "How can I teach them what a foul is if you don't call it?"

Official, "Coach they just learned that THAT was not a foul."

Good players don't want a foul that takes a basket away. So let the play happen.

Don't worry about what their perception of you is, because passing is not missing. Work on quick, short, and sweet phrases like, "No advantage gained coach," or "He/she was straight up coach," or "Your player initiated that contact coach."
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 06:05pm
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Wink "let 'em play.....!"

A patient whistle is good. I remember a tip from a veteran official who took me under his wing when I started over 30 years ago...."Referee the defense....Protect the shooter." Seems the game is so much easier to manage when I remember these two simple techniques. Anticipate the play....but not the action!

Work hard for consistency....and stay in the game!

wl
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 06:31pm
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The reply to the coach, if any explanation is necessary is, "If you really want that contact called, we'll be shooting fouls all night at both ends of the court." If he insists that's waht he wants, you call the other coach over and say, "It appears that both of you feel we need to call the game tighter. So we will, but it's gonna be a long evening." And then proceed to call absolutely everything until they beg for mercy. You can't use this in JV or varsity. But you won't need to. 7th or 8th grade is a great place for it.

If you feel this procedure isn't appropriate, try, "Coach, your girls are doing an excellent job of playing through that type of thing. If we call it we're going to be taking away some of your shots. Is that what you want?" You can't get away with this to the losing team in a 40 point gaem, but in that sitch maybe you should be calling more!
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 07:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Most of us went through the same things you are going through at those lower level games.
Hey Z,
Since we went to 3-Whistle here in WA...have you had to do more of those "lower level games"?

We are being assigned the JV and V games on the same night now to make up for the fees lost in 3-Whistle. In fact, some nights we are even being assigned the Frosh, JV and V...three games in a row...to make up for the extra official needed to make this thing work.

So far I've just been doing boys V...and tonight is just V...but Saturday I have one of those triple headers.
IMO, those Frosh games are harder to call than the V games...I wonder if the Frosh and JV coach will "work us"?

BTW, I love the 3-whistle mechanics...so far it is really going smooth. A lot smoother than I thought it would be!
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 07:58pm
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I think we need more "patient whistles" on attempts to block a shot. I see too many calls at all levels where the block is clean and the incidental contact with the body is called. I think this is an attempt to cover a blown call that was blown because of the anticipation of a foul. Not that I think blocking shots is productive because for every clean block there must be at least 5 legitimate fouls. This causes the anticipation of a foul as mentioned above.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankHtown
I'd like a more patient whistle, but doing mostly sub-varsity games, it seems the coaches at that level want everything called. Their claim is "How can I teach them what is a foul if you don't call it." A player gets barely brushed on a drive to the basket, and right away the chorus of "AND ONE" starts.

I refereed soccer and they let play go if no advantage is gained, and they even have a signal for it (an upsweep of the arms), but how do you communicate to coaches "yes, I saw it...I didn't consider the contact harmful to your team or player, and I let play continue."

Playing advantage/disadvantage, in my opinion, elevates the game, keeps it flowing, and as long as the players and coaches understand, makes it a fun game. But how do you do that without coaches and players thinking "Good gosh, this guy misses everything."

I'd like some opinions, please
Frank two things here.... 1 is don't let a coach dictate what kind of game you call. If he can't teach what a foul is he should not be coaching. Have a patient whistle. Remember you can always blow a late whistle, but you cannot take back a quick whistle. Don't get in trouble by calling the game the coach wants. 2. When it comes to talking to coaches remember the less you say the better off you are. It is tough for a coach to mis quote silence to an assigner. Respond to questions only, not to comments. Most things a coach has to say in a sub level game are comments. Respond to the questions not the comments. For example; " Come on that's a foul." No need for any conversation here. Just go withthe flow. Responding to this could get you in trouble. No if you get this situation' " Hey why is that a block and not a charge?" "coach, the player was not in position to take the charge." Which brings me to my last point. The coach may say something like, " Well, it looked like a charge from this angle." Never tell a coach he is wrong. Even if he is dead wrong. Remember his say may get you to the state finals or may get you 5-10 more games the next season from the assigner. Your comment back to him maybe of this nature " Coach, you may be right I will keep an eye on it the next time down floor." You haven't told him he is wrong, but you haven't told him he is right. Just some info that I picked up along the way.
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 08:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Most of us went through the same things you are going through at those lower level games.
Hey Z,
Since we went to 3-Whistle here in WA...have you had to do more of those "lower level games"?

We are being assigned the JV and V games on the same night now to make up for the fees lost in 3-Whistle. In fact, some nights we are even being assigned the Frosh, JV and V...three games in a row...to make up for the extra official needed to make this thing work.

So far I've just been doing boys V...and tonight is just V...but Saturday I have one of those triple headers.
IMO, those Frosh games are harder to call than the V games...I wonder if the Frosh and JV coach will "work us"?

BTW, I love the 3-whistle mechanics...so far it is really going smooth. A lot smoother than I thought it would be!
RookieDude,

No, I haven't done any lower level games. Not that I mind doing them though... I really enjoy working those games with a new ref that has potential. The executive board on both our boys and girls association decided we'd do 3-person one night a week (for varsity games only) and just let the varsity guys take the pay hit.

I arrived early for my V game the other night so I asked the two JV guys if they wanted me to do some 3-person with them for the first half. They really enjoyed it... hopefully I didn't screw them up too bad.

I have always found that Varsity games are the easiest to call... boys games are easier than girls - the hardest game to call is a girls frosh game.... so many calls are, "should I call that or not?" :-)

The Frosh and JV coach will only "work you" if you let them.

Yes, I am really enjoying 3-person games too. It's getting me spoiled though. We only do 3-person on our Tuesday or Wednesday games and then back to 2-person on Friday nights because we just don't have enough refs to do otherwise.

The coaches (especially in a fast boys game) seem to really appreciate 3-whistle. The A.D.'s don't seem to get it yet... they just worry about the additional fees they'll have to pay when the trail period is over.

The coach of my game Tuesday has a great sense of humor. In the coaches meeting he says, "the only thing I don't like about 3-person is that there is always a referees butt in my face." Then he says, "the official's butt last week was about 2 axe handles wide and I kept having to ask my assistant coaches, what just happened?"

Z
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Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 09:07pm
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Offer to help the coach reinforce his teaching of the rules by having a quick whistle whenever HIS team violates one of the rules he wants to emphasize. Then ask which ones he’s particularly worried about.

I like the advantage idea with younger kids. If you really want to help fix bad habits that tend to linger, consider kids who play defense with their hands and hack forearms like they are choppin' wood. Also the highly effective foot fake with right, step with left and then dribble (and vice-versa) would be a terrific candidate. You might need to pack a light supper if you are going to call all of those though. Ah, the glory of youth coaching (and officiating, I’m sure).
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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 04:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
The Frosh and JV coach will only "work you" if you let them.
Z,
I guess you missed the sarcasm.

Trust me,
the Frosh and JV coaches WILL NOT be "working us"...at least not for very long.

BTW, a ironic story relating to tonight's Varsity Boys game.
There was a thread today, talking about ejecting a V coach in the stands during a JV game.
IT HAPPENED TONIGHT!

I had never really thought about it untill reading the posts today.
Well, sure enough, tonight a JV official ejected the V coach from the gym they were playing the JV game in. The V coach was not at the bench but in the stands.

I couldn't believe it! I did not see it but the JV official told me, at their halftime, what he had done.
He didn't give much detail...just that the coach was questioning him about a call.

Well at the pre-game coaches conference, for the V game, the coach looked a little shaken. He said he had coached since 1962...and had NEVER been ejected!
I asked him if he was at the JV bench...and he said no, he was just watching the game and told the JV official that something was not a correctable error...he was very surprised that the JV official ejected him for that.
I guess the JV official might have had a quick trigger tonight...or we haven't heard the whole story.
Anyway, I told him since he wasn't at the bench, it might not be documented...it would be between the school and the WIAA state office to determine that...if in fact the JV official turns it in to our assignor???

We had a great V contest...with many lead changes through out the 4th quarter. No problems with either coach...just a real fun H.S. basketball game to work.



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Old Fri Dec 10, 2004, 07:07am
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Refaholic, I agree that there are many ways to tell a coach he/she is wrong without actually telling them they are wrong. However, if a conversation with a coach is going to make or break a trip to the playoffs then that official, who ever they may be, is fighting an uphill battle from the start.

Z, are you saying you did 3-man for the first half of a JV game and didn't finish the game that way?
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