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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 05:49am
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Question Weird game and awkward moment tonight

Disclaimer: (potentially pertinent for one of my points) I officiated Biddy, AAU and middle school/Junior high games for about 6 years then took 4 years off and started back up again this season. Also began doing HS games as well this year for the first time.

BV game tonight.

I have 2 questions on calls that I'm questioning in my head even though I think I got them right. And a really awkward situation at the end of the game that i'll describe and see if anyone has ever dealt with something like this and what would you do.

1.) H1 recovers loose ball while laying on his back then sits up. I call a travel. Is this correct?

2.) H1 throws in from backcourt endline to H2 who is standing in the lane in backcourt. V1 then practically tackles H2. I call an intentional foul on V1. We shoot the 2 FT then put the ball back in play for H at the backcourt endline again. Correct?

Now here's where it gets a little crazy. Before the game I learn that my partner had V in their game last Friday night. Didn't think anything of it.

H is winning 44-42 with 30 sec or so left. V gets ball close to the block for uncontested layup. I'm at L on opposite side and my partner calls a very questionable travel from T and waives off the made basket. (kid pulled the stutter step with his non pivot foot that looks weird enough to be construed as a travel)

V gets the ball back and V1 is fouled and sent to the line for double bonus with 13.7 secs remaining. He makes the 1st FT. Then makes the second FT but my partner waives off the game tying FT for a lane violation on V. Also very questionable. H is still winning and score is now 44-43.

Intentional foul from above happens next among other fouls and end of game ridiculousness and H ends up winning 46-43.

After the game an AC from V walks up to me while my partner is next to me and shakes my hand and tells me great game and that I did a great job (then turned his back without even acknowledging my partner). I then proceeded to try to explain something that he had asked about earlier in the game and he starts telling me that all he wanted was a fair game and that I did a great job. I said thank you. He then proceeded to tell me that they had the same issues last week at the other school but I wasn't there so I was "cool" and told me good job again.

My partner has probably been doing this for a few years from what i can gather from the way he was talking and I'm a "newbie". I felt incredibly awkward and couldn't figure out what to say/do except walk out with my partner and not say anything about what had just happened.

All of this is happening while the fans from V are screaming, "that's that cheating ref from (enter other school's name here)" and this continued all the way into the parking lot. (Apparently they even won the previous game that they were talking about)

What would you do?

And BTW, I was reading some of the other threads and our pay rate is no where near any of the ones mentioned in the thread about standard pay rates. I'm living in the wrong city!

Thanks guys!
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 06:03am
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First year back and you are doing V? Not around here would that happen. Sitting up isn't a travel unless both feet come off the floor (which, unless the kid is Clark Kent is probable)

second situation is that you hung your partner out to dry by engaging an AC in conversation who was only doing what he did so he could make a point.

If you are going to ignore the criticism from coaches, then you should ignore the praise too. Don't be seduced by the dark side. All coaches are lyin cheatin *******s
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Last edited by Ignats75; Wed Jan 27, 2010 at 09:56am.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 06:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EHLNOLA View Post
1.) H1 recovers loose ball while laying on his back then sits up. I call a travel. Is this correct?

2.) H1 throws in from backcourt endline to H2 who is standing in the lane in backcourt. V1 then practically tackles H2. I call an intentional foul on V1. We shoot the 2 FT then put the ball back in play for H at the backcourt endline again. Correct?
1. No, sitting up after gaining possession while on one's back is legal per the NFHS Case Book.
2. Correct throw-in placement for resuming the game as that is the nearest OOB spot to the location of the foul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
First year back and you are doing V? Not around here would that happen. Sitting up isn't a travel unless both feet come off the floor (which, unless the kid is Clark Kent is probable)
That is not a consideration. It is not part of the rule, never has been, and should not be used to determine traveling in this situation. The only criteria are roll over or attempt to get up or stand. That's it. Stick with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
second situation is that you hung your partner out to dry by engaging an AC in conversation who was only doing what he did so he could make a point.

If you are going to ignore the criticism from coaches, then you should ignore the praise too. Don't be suduced by the dark side. All coaches are lyin cheatin *******s
I agree. The coach was embarrassing your partner and you went along with it. You knew it too. The problem here is that you didn't like your partner's calls, which you referred to in your post as "a very questionable travel" and "Also very questionable."
Either walk out of the gym without saying a word to anyone and let your partner answer for his own decisions or find the intestinal fortitude to confront your partner and ask him what he saw on those plays, especially if you felt that they were in your primary coverage area. If you can't ask him why he made those calls and express your honest opinion of them to his face, then you shouldn't be posting about them on a internet forum. Unfortunately, what you participated in with the coach following the game was shameful.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 07:21am
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EHLNOLA - Any post-game with your partner? I'd be curious as to his take on what you perceived as "questionable" calls.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 07:37am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I agree. The coach was embarrassing your partner and you went along with it. You knew it too.
+1

Get out of the gym when you're done. All of the participants in a close game like that are hepped up on adrenaline and rarely think straight. Nothing good ever came from such a conversation right after the game.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 09:55am
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I got reamed by a clinician at a camp a few years ago because he said when a player is done moving (sliding or other momentum) and both feet are on the floor. One foot will become the pivot. If the player sits up and both feet come off the floor, then the pivot foot was raised and lowered....hence it should've been travelling. Ironically, I didn't pass on the call...I just didn't see it. But I was written up for misunderstanding the travel rule...which I thought was heavy handed by the clinician. thats why I am careful about officiating camps now.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EHLNOLA View Post
...After the game an AC from V walks up to me while my partner is next to me and shakes my hand and tells me great game and that I did a great job (then turned his back without even acknowledging my partner). I then proceeded to try to explain something that he had asked about earlier in the game and he starts telling me that all he wanted was a fair game and that I did a great job. I said thank you. He then proceeded to tell me that they had the same issues last week at the other school but I wasn't there so I was "cool" and told me good job again....
1) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after a game?

2) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after he just disrespected your partner?
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
I got reamed by a clinician at a camp a few years ago because he said when a player is done moving (sliding or other momentum) and both feet are on the floor. One foot will become the pivot. If the player sits up and both feet come off the floor, then the pivot foot was raised and lowered....hence it should've been travelling. Ironically, I didn't pass on the call...I just didn't see it. But I was written up for misunderstanding the travel rule...which I thought was heavy handed by the clinician. thats why I am careful about officiating camps now.
Nats....

The clinician (as now you already know by your due dilligence while looking for camps) is full of hooey.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EHLNOLA View Post
Disclaimer: (potentially pertinent for one of my points) I officiated Biddy, AAU and middle school/Junior high games for about 6 years then took 4 years off and started back up again this season. Also began doing HS games as well this year for the first time.
Must be in SoCal.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
1) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after a game?

2) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after he just disrespected your partner?
I would add, why engage in a conversation with an assistant coach?
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 03:18pm
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Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I would add, why engage in a conversation with an assistant coach?
It's after the game. There's no need to snub someone just because s/he's the assistant coach. That person will likely be a head coach someday.

And, while the ***'t coach gets less leeway on "complaining" during the game, I'll still talk to them occassionally if they are polite, I have time, it's not taking away from my other duties, etc.

(In the particular play being discussed, I agree that no conversation with anyone should have taken place.)
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
1) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after a game?

2) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after he just disrespected your partner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I would add, why engage in a conversation with an assistant coach?
Once the game is over coaches, assistant or head, don't exist to me. They are just another face in the crowd.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
2) Why are you engaging in conversation with a coach after he just disrespected your partner?
I'm not so sure the OP realized what was happening until after it had occurred.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleringer View Post
I would add, why engage in a conversation with an assistant coach?
Thanks for the responses on the two calls I made.

As for the after game situation:

This was in a gym that didn't provide a room for us and my bag was under the scorer's table so I was stuck on the court for a few extra minutes. The coach walked up to me and stuck his hand out to shake my hand, i'm not going to just ignore him. Also, I didn't chime in on what he was saying, I just said something along the lines of "ok, coach, thanks." I don't think by any means did i disservice or disrespect my partner. I just felt uneasy that the coach was saying those things.

As far as doing V in my first year back, in Louisiana, al you have to do is officiate 10 sub varsity level games with an "approved" or "certified" official and they have to sign off on you and you're abilities. Approved and certified are the two higher level officials. That just means you're allowed. I have been evaluated by the assignor and his assistant and the rules expert in our association and now they assign me to smaller to mid size school girls and boys varsity.

I've been fortunate and have done alot of games with some very experienced and very good officials this year so i've learned a bunch every game.

Thanks
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
It's after the game. There's no need to snub someone just because s/he's the assistant coach. That person will likely be a head coach someday.
In Iowa, both the boys' association and girls' union discourage us from participating in conversations with assistant coaches. I'm not sure why, as you pointed out, those individuals will likely be head coaches some day.
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