Questioning my T

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My take? It worked. I'm guessing that "ice cold" means he didn't speak to you. You answered his question. He doesn't have to like it, but now he knows you at least saw the play. His response was classic teenage defensive.

I should have commented on this earlier, because this is actually what I thought. The communication worked if he was cold to you the rest of the night.

Now, maybe by cold you mean he still chirped and complained but just didn't engage you.

What's most important to remember is that no coach is the same. Neither are any of us. Each of us will have a style of communication that works for us, and each coach will have a different approach to interacting with officials. If the worse thing that happens is that after you approach a coach to communicate about a call is that he goes ice cold on you the rest of the night, I'd keep doing what you're doing.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I tried my best to apply this last night in my girls JV game. I was R, so in my conference I made a point to have a positive, upbeat attitude with the coaches and let them know we'd appreciate communication with them.

Did it do any good? Not really.

End of 1st quarter, I'm T as the clock is expiring. B1 has the ball and jumps into A1, who jumps vertically to block the shot. There is a good amount of contact, but I have nothing, as B1 jumped into A1's vertical space.

Well, B coach isn't please with my call. Normally, I would ignore him and talk to my partner during the break between quarters, but, trying to take your (and others' advice), I go over to talk to him. I'm calm, I'm pleasant, I explain to him that his player jumped INTO the other player, therefore there's no foul even though there was contact.

He laughs at me (nothing outrageous, more of a sarcastic chuckle), rolls his eyes, and says "whatever." He is ice cold to me the rest of the game.

Yes, this was just one game, and it's not going to keep me from working on my communication, but I'm honestly convinced at this point it is less me and more the coaches. They don't want to be reasoned with.

First of all, you are to be commended for attempting to implement some of the suggestions made, here.

Originally Posted by jdw3018

What's most important to remember is that no coach is the same. Neither are any of us. Each of us will have a style of communication that works for us, and each coach will have a different approach to interacting with officials. If the worse thing that happens is that after you approach a coach to communicate about a call is that he goes ice cold on you the rest of the night, I'd keep doing what you're doing.

An important thing for all referees to remember.

Fiasco, the fact that you have tried to implement a different plan is a sign you want to improve. Some of your posts have tended be be argumentative, in my opinion. Staying level-headed is the sign of a good official.

When you read posts from others, YOU have to decide which posts contain suggestions that you want to try to implement and which ones you decide not to implement. No one on this Board is perfect. Therefore, you have to decide how to implement these suggestions by deciding which ones you want to use and which ones you choose to ignore.

Officiating is hard. It takes years of experience to become a truly effective official. Coaching is hard. It takes years of experience to become a truly effeective coach. It takes trial and error to decide what works best for YOU as an official in terms of communicating with coaches.

Good luck!!!!

[Scratch85]

How do you handle coaches? Easily the most frequently asked question in my Association. There aren't any great one liners or zingers that puts coaches in their place (at least where we think their place is) and there isn't one answer that serves all officials equally. Since we are acknowledging that we need a solution that fits our personality, the coaches personality and the situation at the time, let me add what works for me.

I can't wait to talk to a coach once the game begins. It is always at their request or after they are chirping and think they want to get my ear. Sometimes I have to look at them (eye contact) to get them to engage me, but I do this early and as soon as possible (before they are truly upset) in the game. I don't interrupt the game but I do make myself available. My objective is to make certain that they know they are dealing with a confident official who knows the rules. Not only confident in dealing with game situations and coaches but dealing with my partners also. By the way, you will need to know the rules to do this. It doesn't hurt that I am as old or older than most coaches I see. It is fortunate because they don't see me as the "Hot Shot, Gun Slinger" trying to make a name for himself.

That said, once the coach knows that I am capable of talking to him like an adult (not a testosterone filled, competitive, I'll kick your a$$, STFU kind of guy) and that I will not ignore him, I pretty much ignore him. If I have to talk to him again, I talk to him just like I did the first time. Sometimes it doesn't work and a T is required to restore order, but rarely.

This is what works for me. I am not advocating that it will work for you. I am just giving my SMO and if it translates into something for you, good. If it doesn't, you can just STFU and I'll meet you in the parking lot to see who can kick who's a$$.

Good luck dealing with coaches.

[Back In The Saddle]

fiasco,

I'm coming back to this a little late, but ...

Good for you! The change in attitude and approach will make a big difference. As for the situation...you gave the coach a brief intelligent answer. Yes, he responded immaturely, but that's his problem, not yours. Coaches won't always (or even often) like or agree with your explanation. But the act of giving the explanation does a lot to dispel tensions. It sounds like he left you alone to work the rest of the game. That's a pretty good outcome, I'd say

Last night I had a coach who was 110% committed to being a jerk no matter what I did.

• VHC insists we have to start the game with a T because the home book wasn't filled out at the 10:00 mark. Because I checked at 11:00 I know that rosters were submitted and starters marked. But the home scorekeeper was nowhere to be found right up until game time. I declared the V book as the official book at about 1:00 and didn't stress about it.
• A couple minutes in my partner lets a H kid run the baseline on what should have been a spot throw-in. VHC and his noisy assistant are insistent that this is traveling and I need to call it, from 70 feet away. I do not share their conviction.
• At the next dead ball VHC insists that the aforementioned "traveling" is a correctable error and I need to fix it because we're still within the time frame.
• Another minute goes by and we have a free throw at his end. I'm L. There is some commotion about one of the free throws bouncing up and hitting a support wire before passing through the basket. My partner says something to the coach and we play on. At the next dead ball VHC calls me over and informs me that my partner told him that the ball hit the wire but it didn't matter because it was on a free throw. He tells me we're "costing him points".
• During this exchange his noisy assistant is up and chirping loudly. I give her the sit your butt down wave.
• Couldn't have been more than 2 plays later there is rebounding action in front of his bench. His girl gets the rebound. He thinks she gets whacked on the arm and he yells at me, "Call a foul!"
• I oblige. And so midway through the first quarter, he takes a well deserved seat on the bench.
• Things went much smoother from that point onward.

Oh, and this is just classic...when P and I return for the second half, VHC approaches and asks which of us is the referee. I tell him I am, and as I walk him back toward his bench he starts laying the old "I'm a referee too, and I even used to work college ball and I realize that you're here working the sophomores because you need to learn too, but..." business on me and goes on to recap his whole list of grievances making his case that we're costing him points. (Somehow I managed to not crack a smile when he laid the "I'm a referee" line on me, and wasn't even tempted to tell him that I do work college ball and that I'm working his game because the assigner called the night before in a bind because so many refs canceled to stay home and watch the BYU game.) I let him get it all off his chest, and then addressed his concerns in more detail (I had addressed most of them briefly at the time). And the darnedest thing happened. By the time I got to the scorebook complaint and explained that all that is required is for the rosters to be submitted with the starters marked at 10:00 and the rules say nothing about the book being filled out, he stopped and stared at me then asked, "Has that changed in the last few years then?"

Against what appeared to be impossible odds, through persevering with positive, approachable attitude and communication, despite sitting him down, it seems I gained some credibility with him. Nice. Unexpected. But nice.

BTW, it turns out his attitude is endemic to the entire program. The varsity crew sat the HC late in the 2nd quarter. The freshman crew had problems with the freshman coach. During the varsity game, the freshman coach was seated in the student section, giving his expert commentary on the officiating. The only coach we didn't have problems with was the JV coach. And that may only have been because she watched me whack the soph. coach. I'm betting she wasn't thrilled to see me come back out for her game

[Ignats75]

I need to mention this again because it's been said, but glossed over too. You can't please coaches and you shouldn't try. Opening weekend, I issued a well earned T to one of the best players in the area. The T resulted from her complaining about my foul call that happed to be her fourth PF......Buh-bye!

I didn't handle the coach well and kind of baited him, but he is an excellent coach; recognized I was a little hot and let it go.

Fast forward to Tuesday Night. I'm in the stands to watch my darling daughter in her first start since dislocating her shoulder. Guess who comes in and sits one row in front of me? Yep, it's Coach Tony and his assistants, there. To scout DD's team. He didn't see me right away, bit I mentioned who he was to my wife and her eyes got pretty big. THAT reaction alone was worth the price of admission!

When he saw me, I could see the recognition flash in front of his eyes (I don't think he's a very good poker player). But, he was cordial and we even had a laugh after DD fouled out on a controversial call (to her-no sympathy from Dad) and at the end when good guys won in 2OT. Lesson there is that you can't please em at the time and IT DOESN'T MATTER.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You are right. But when the OP's story changes from post to post confusion follows.

I will say this, if all of this happened in the areas where I have worked and currently work, you wouldn't be nearly ready for a varsity assignment.

I already know I'm not ready for a varsity assignment. I don't need arrogant jackasses like you to tell me that. That's what my evaluator is for, dingleberry.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

fiasco,

I'm coming back to this a little late, but ...

Good for you! The change in attitude and approach will make a big difference.

Thanks. Trying to learn something every day.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My take? It worked. I'm guessing that "ice cold" means he didn't speak to you. You answered his question. He doesn't have to like it, but now he knows you at least saw the play. His response was classic teenage defensive.

Interesting. I hadn't looked at it from this perspective.

Thanks.

[constable]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

fiasco,

I'm coming back to this a little late, but ...

Good for you! The change in attitude and approach will make a big difference. As for the situation...you gave the coach a brief intelligent answer. Yes, he responded immaturely, but that's his problem, not yours. Coaches won't always (or even often) like or agree with your explanation. But the act of giving the explanation does a lot to dispel tensions. It sounds like he left you alone to work the rest of the game. That's a pretty good outcome, I'd say

Last night I had a coach who was 110% committed to being a jerk no matter what I did.

• VHC insists we have to start the game with a T because the home book wasn't filled out at the 10:00 mark. Because I checked at 11:00 I know that rosters were submitted and starters marked. But the home scorekeeper was nowhere to be found right up until game time. I declared the V book as the official book at about 1:00 and didn't stress about it.
• A couple minutes in my partner lets a H kid run the baseline on what should have been a spot throw-in. VHC and his noisy assistant are insistent that this is traveling and I need to call it, from 70 feet away. I do not share their conviction.
• At the next dead ball VHC insists that the aforementioned "traveling" is a correctable error and I need to fix it because we're still within the time frame.
• Another minute goes by and we have a free throw at his end. I'm L. There is some commotion about one of the free throws bouncing up and hitting a support wire before passing through the basket. My partner says something to the coach and we play on. At the next dead ball VHC calls me over and informs me that my partner told him that the ball hit the wire but it didn't matter because it was on a free throw. He tells me we're "costing him points".
• During this exchange his noisy assistant is up and chirping loudly. I give her the sit your butt down wave.
• Couldn't have been more than 2 plays later there is rebounding action in front of his bench. His girl gets the rebound. He thinks she gets whacked on the arm and he yells at me, "Call a foul!"
• I oblige. And so midway through the first quarter, he takes a well deserved seat on the bench.
• Things went much smoother from that point onward.

Oh, and this is just classic...when P and I return for the second half, VHC approaches and asks which of us is the referee. I tell him I am, and as I walk him back toward his bench he starts laying the old "I'm a referee too, and I even used to work college ball and I realize that you're here working the sophomores because you need to learn too, but..." business on me and goes on to recap his whole list of grievances making his case that we're costing him points. (Somehow I managed to not crack a smile when he laid the "I'm a referee" line on me, and wasn't even tempted to tell him that I do work college ball and that I'm working his game because the assigner called the night before in a bind because so many refs canceled to stay home and watch the BYU game.) I let him get it all off his chest, and then addressed his concerns in more detail (I had addressed most of them briefly at the time). And the darnedest thing happened. By the time I got to the scorebook complaint and explained that all that is required is for the rosters to be submitted with the starters marked at 10:00 and the rules say nothing about the book being filled out, he stopped and stared at me then asked, "Has that changed in the last few years then?"

Against what appeared to be impossible odds, through persevering with positive, approachable attitude and communication, despite sitting him down, it seems I gained some credibility with him. Nice. Unexpected. But nice.

BTW, it turns out his attitude is endemic to the entire program. The varsity crew sat the HC late in the 2nd quarter. The freshman crew had problems with the freshman coach. During the varsity game, the freshman coach was seated in the student section, giving his expert commentary on the officiating. The only coach we didn't have problems with was the JV coach. And that may only have been because she watched me whack the soph. coach. I'm betting she wasn't thrilled to see me come back out for her game

Wow and you didn't whack him there? That is the holiday spirit!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I already know I'm not ready for a varsity assignment. I don't need arrogant jackasses like you to tell me that. That's what my evaluator is for, dingleberry.

Commenting that someone seems unready for varsity in a certain area of the country does not qualify as arrogant, IMO.

It also seems somewhat ungracious of you to bring a situation to the board and then get defensive about many or even most of the replies. It says that you didn't want people's comments, you wanted vindication.

If you ask for comments, then take them for what they're worth. You've been here long enough to know whose opinion counts for something; others you can safely ignore. Learn what you can and move on, and don't expect vindication from everyone on the board.

On the other hand, if you're down on yourself and really need a boost, we're a community here and can discuss that issue independently. We've all screwed up, and some have useful advice about bouncing back.

You're free, as are we all, to post as you wish. But some posting experiences are bound to be frustrating and unproductive. Lashing out at posters who happen to disagree with you falls on the unproductive side.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Thanks. Trying to learn something every day.

Questioning my T

Still hoping you can clear this part up for me.