Questioning Integrity of Officials & League

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Below are some comments from a couple of Baltimore Ravens players after Monday nights game against the Patriots...

McAlister said, ... “ It’s hard to go out there and play the Patriots and the refs at the same time... They put the crown on top of them, they want them to win"

Rolle said. "...They're not asking the refs to help them, but it's just an empty feeling."

Other Raven players were telling reporters that the NFL wants the Patriots to win because it sells more tickets and that the league is instructing the referees to give New England the benefit of the doubt on close calls so that they can remain undefeated

Also, Raven player Scott picked up an official's flag and hurled it into the stands

Baseball obviously handles the above situations differently than football.

1. Questioning the ingretity of an umpire and/or MLB is an automatic ejection (if done during the game) and an immediate fine and suspension if done publicly through the media (the league dishes out its punishment within 24 hours on these type of matters - I think the NBA handles it in a similar fashion)

2. I can't believe the player who throw the flag in the stands was not ejected IMMEDIATELY. How much more can you disrespect an official than what that idiot did? Also, what kind of precedent does that send to other players in the league - are they going to be able to get away with that? And no, penalizing a player, I don't care how many yards, does not take care of the problem

3. Here we are, 48 hours after these comments, and the NFL has done absolutely nothing to back it's officials. That is SAD!!!! McAllister, Rolle & Scott should have been fined and suspended for their comments/actions on Tuesday

4. As for the "Boy" comment - this should be dealt with separately. With this type of matter, it usually takes a little longer to get all of the details. I would imagine that this official will probably be suspended for a certain amount of games and probably deservedly so.

Can you football guys help this ignorant baseball umpire understand why things were handled so poorly - both by the referee who did not throw Scott out of the game and the NFL for not immediately handing out suspensions and fines for the integrity comments?????

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UES

Baseball obviously handles the above situations differently than football.

1. Questioning the ingretity of an umpire and/or MLB is an automatic ejection (if done during the game) and an immediate fine and suspension if done publicly through the media (the league dishes out its punishment within 24 hours on these type of matters - I think the NBA handles it in a similar fashion)

Let me qualify my statement by saying I did not see this live. I turned back to the game after all of this had happen. First of all the comments you just mentioned were not things that were said during the game. These were things said in the locker room. So to say there should have been an "automatic" ejection does not even apply. And from what I understand it is hard to know what was said on the field. And for the record fines and suspensions are common in the NFL without action being taken by officials. It happens much more in the NFL than I have ever heard done in other sports.

Originally Posted by UES

2. I can't believe the player who throw the flag in the stands was not ejected IMMEDIATELY. How much more can you disrespect an official than what that idiot did? Also, what kind of precedent does that send to other players in the league - are they going to be able to get away with that? And no, penalizing a player, I don't care how many yards, does not take care of the problem

All I will say is I did not see if there was an ejection. But what I understand is he did not play anymore and received two unsportsmanlike penalties. From what I understand in football there is not a 2 and out limit with unsportsmanlike penalties, but you can be ejected. I am not sure if that happen here or not.

Originally Posted by UES

3. Here we are, 48 hours after these comments, and the NFL has done absolutely nothing to back it's officials. That is SAD!!!! McAllister, Rolle & Scott should have been fined and suspended for their comments/actions on Tuesday

We do not know what they have or will do. The issue is definitely being investigated. We just do not know what the action will be. There will be action, it is just under review. The NFL talks their time on these issues.

Originally Posted by UES

4. As for the "Boy" comment - this should be dealt with separately. With this type of matter, it usually takes a little longer to get all of the details. I would imagine that this official will probably be suspended for a certain amount of games and probably deservedly so.

Once again this is under investigation. I can tell you that this is a little different because that will involve what happens to the officials. The same individual that would fine or suspend the officials is not the same people that fine and suspend players. Different "departments" that take care of those issues and who they fine and suspend in the NFL.

Originally Posted by UES

Can you football guys help this ignorant baseball umpire understand why things were handled so poorly - both by the referee who did not throw Scott out of the game and the NFL for not immediately handing out suspensions and fines for the integrity comments?????

I am a football and baseball official. The sports are different for many reasons. For one there is no equivalent for penalties in baseball like there are in football. Penalties can cost series yardage and can change the complexion of the game. All that happens to a team in baseball is an ejection. Which I would argue does nothing. All they do in baseball is getting rid of the player from the game instead of awarding a game penalty. You do not award bases or give runs for an unsportsmanlike act in baseball. You do award significant yardage in football and as it did the penalties help the Ravens lose the game. And I really do not know that MLB does a better job in handing in fines and suspensions. I know it takes days to bring down fines and suspensions in baseball and they can play as they decide to appeal the punishment. Last year when a player stepped on the face of another player, this player lost about 6 games or a quarter of the entire season. In some cases when players get suspended in baseball they do not miss that much time and in some cases it is minor compared to what happens in football. I think you need to put some things in perspective about how penalties are handed out. If anything players in the NFL get fined from how they do not wear their uniform to hits that are not penalized. A MLB player can curse out an umpire and they will play the next day and not ever get suspended unless they go so over the top the league feels like they should do something.

Peace

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Thanks Rut - since you work both sports, your input is what I was looking for. Frankly, I'm surprised more people in this football section are not discussing this topic as it relates to the treatment of officials.

In reply, I realize that the comments regarding the integrity of the officials and the league were made AFTER the game. However, since those comments appeared in every major newspaper, TV and radio stations across the US on Tuesday, I don't understand what the NFL is "investigating". Allowing players to openly question the integrity of officials as well as the ethics of the league undermines the backbone of the sport and that has to be dealt with SWIFTLY and SEVERLY


As for Baltimore's Scott throwing the flag into the stands, that SHOULD have been an AUTOMATIC, IMMEDIATE ejection and no one will convince me otherise. And I know he was not ejected because he remained on the sideline and never left the field. I don't care how many yards he was penalized, he has got to go for that... PERIOD! Moreover, because Mr White Hat did not take care of business, it will only be a matter of time before some other idiot does the same thing and then what... he has screwed his fellow referees because he set a bad precident by allowing a player to do that and still remain in the game. That looks bad - REAL BAD now doesn't it?

I understand that the different sports handle on field actions differently - mainly because football has USC penalties and basketball has technical fouls they can hand out to diffuse situations. However, when a player crosses the line as bad as Scott did, an ejection has to be given or else an official will lose credibility and appear as "soft". Now I'm not saying you have to be a red a$$, but come on, what he did was totally unacceptable and ONLY punishable, IMO, with automatic EJECTION.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UES

In reply, I realize that the comments regarding the integrity of the officials and the league were made AFTER the game. However, since those comments appeared in every major newspaper, TV and radio stations across the US on Tuesday, I don't understand what the NFL is "investigating". Allowing players to openly question the integrity of officials as well as the ethics of the league undermines the backbone of the sport and that has to be dealt with SWIFTLY and SEVERLY

I think if you wait to see what the fines or suspensions might be, you might feel differently. You are just talking about 2 days from the incident. It is not like they waited a week and nothing is being done. My understanding the league will wait until sometime tomorrow to take whatever action will be taken. For all you know Scott might be suspended a couple of games. You do not know.

Originally Posted by UES

As for Baltimore's Scott throwing the flag into the stands, that SHOULD have been an AUTOMATIC, IMMEDIATE ejection and no one will convince me otherise. And I know he was not ejected because he remained on the sideline and never left the field. I don't care how many yards he was penalized, he has got to go for that... PERIOD! Moreover, because Mr White Hat did not take care of business, it will only be a matter of time before some other idiot does the same thing and then what... he has screwed his fellow referees because he set a bad precident by allowing a player to do that and still remain in the game. That looks bad - REAL BAD now doesn't it?

Once again I think officials know the league will take action. Once again, I do not see this as a big deal. And I have never seen MLB make a big deal about an ejection (and they get in the faces of umpires all the time) unless the player or coach does not leave in a timely manner. And even when they throw stuff they do not lose games. I have seen umpires contacted and it takes time for them to suspend the person for 1 game.

Originally Posted by UES

I understand that the different sports handle on field actions differently - mainly because football has USC penalties and basketball has technical fouls they can hand out to diffuse situations. However, when a player crosses the line as bad as Scott did, an ejection has to be given or else an official will lose credibility and appear as "soft". Now I'm not saying you have to be a red a$$, but come on, what he did was totally unacceptable and ONLY punishable, IMO, with automatic EJECTION.

This is the difference between baseball umpires and other sports. Baseball umpires are worried about being called soft. I can tell you that as a basketball official the last thing I am ever worried about is being called soft. As a basketball official trying to be a “tough guy” can go against you rather fast. And as a football official it does not even cross my mind. If you look at NFL particularly they fine the hell out of their players for all kinds of stuff. And I do not think the officials have to worry about credibility when players and coaches are fined big time for what they say in the media and how they act on or off the field. Michael Vick was not even convicted of anything and he was already suspended. I have never heard of a player in baseball even suspended for a DUI let alone anything they do on the field towards and umpire. So relax. I think the reason you do not see anyone talking about this, is because it is not that big of a deal.

Peace

[sj]

Originally Posted by UES

// and the NFL for not immediately handing out suspensions and fines for the integrity comments?????

I'm sure they are addressing all of it and want to get it right. Perhaps they just need time.

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Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again I think officials know the league will take action. Once again, I do not see this as a big deal...

The Big Deal is that Scott was not IMMEDIATELY ejected from the game for what he did. Do you think picking up an officials flag and throwing it in the stands should NOT result in an ejection from the current game? Come on Rut

Originally Posted by JRutledge

As a basketball official trying to be a “tough guy” can go against you rather fast.

Ask Joey Crawford about that -

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the difference between baseball umpires and other sports. Baseball umpires are worried about being called soft. I can tell you that as a basketball official the last thing I am ever worried about is being called soft. And as a football official it does not even cross my mind.

I think you bring up a good point here. Personally, I've always admired how basketball referees and football sideline officials seems so composed when players and coaches are screaming in the ear. Even when they throw a flag or give a T, they always seem to be under control.

I think MLB umpires are moving in that direction. Those days of the Earl Weaver/Billy Martin animated arguments are soon coming to in end because umpires are now just walking away. I think discussions on the baseball field will still get heated from time to time, but umpires will now do more things to difuse the situation rather than escalate the arguments.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Michael Vick was not even convicted of anything and he was already suspended. I have never heard of a player in baseball even suspended for a DUI let alone anything they do on the field towards and umpire. So relax. I think the reason you do not see anyone talking about this, is because it is not that big of a deal.

I'm not really concerned with all of the off the field troubles that athletes get into. However, I do feel it's a big deal when they go to the media and say that the Refs are purposely cheating and the NFL is "fixing" games. Considering the amount of money that is wagered on games and the whole Donahay betting scandal - the last thing football needs is players coming up conspiracy theories and telling evey media outlet how crooked the officials are. Just my opinion - I'll take a chill pill now

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UES

The Big Deal is that Scott was not IMMEDIATELY ejected from the game for what he did. Do you think picking up an officials flag and throwing it in the stands should NOT result in an ejection from the current game? Come on Rut

OK. The NFL is different than other levels I work. When I work the NFL I will worry about what should have been done.

Originally Posted by UES

Ask Joey Crawford about that -

If you have not noticed, Joey Crawford was suspended last year from the NBA for being overly aggressive (right or wrong). And you do not see what goes on in the NBA apply to other levels. You do not see big time D1 Officials challenging players and coaches. They do not need to. And showing your a tough guy does not work very well.

Originally Posted by UES

I think you bring up a good point here. Personally, I've always admired how basketball referees and football sideline officials seems so composed when players and coaches are screaming in the ear. Even when they throw a flag or give a T, they always seem to be under control.

I think MLB umpires are moving in that direction. Those days of the Earl Weaver/Billy Martin animated arguments are soon coming to in end because umpires are now just walking away. I think discussions on the baseball field will still get heated from time to time, but umpires will now do more things to difuse the situation rather than escalate the arguments.

That behavior is expected.

I would agree the pushing and shoving matches are not common. But you still see umpires willing to get in the face of the players when and ejection takes place. Why not just walk away and let the coach or player make a complete azz of themselves?

Originally Posted by UES

I'm not really concerned with all of the off the field troubles that athletes get into. However, I do feel it's a big deal when they go to the media and say that the Refs are purposely cheating and the NFL is "fixing" games. Considering the amount of money that is wagered on games and the whole Donahay betting scandal - the last thing football needs is players coming up conspiracy theories and telling evey media outlet how crooked the officials are. Just my opinion - I'll take a chill pill now

OK that is fine, but the NFL has and will punish players for that. Neither of us knows the penalties that are coming or not coming. And if you have not noticed, players in all sports come up with theories of conspiracies and think the officials are out to get them. All you have to do is get on a chat room to figure that out.

Peace

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Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK. The NFL is different than other levels I work. When I work the NFL I will worry about what should have been done.

I'm not sure I follow you on this.... Do you think he should have been ejected or was a 30 yard penalty acessed on the kick off punishment enough? If you want to see the video, I'm sure you can google it but I would hope that you realize that an ejection is the only way to go

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you have not noticed, Joey Crawford was suspended last year from the NBA for being overly aggressive (right or wrong). And you do not see what goes on in the NBA apply to other levels. You do not see big time D1 Officials challenging players and coaches. They do not need to. And showing your a tough guy does not work very well.

My comment about Joey Crawford was sarcastic. I totally agree with you about being overly agressive. Crawford's always been a hot head and I think he went overboard and Stern gave him a little "reality check". I'm glad he got a second chance because he's a good official and I bet he learned a lot from that situation. IMO, NBA players show the most disrespect towards officials than players in the NFL, MLB or NHL.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... But you still see umpires willing to get in the face of the players when and ejection takes place. Why not just walk away and let the coach or player make a complete azz of themselves?

I agree that they should eject if necessary, then walk away. I think MLB has put an emphasis on getting away from the head bobbing arguments and moving towards more lower key discussions. The trend will continue to go in this direction: a classic example of this was the Lou Pinella - Mark Wegner confrontation this past season. For a baseball argument of that magnitude, I thought Wegner handled himself well and did not let Lou's shinanigans get the best of him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UES

I'm not sure I follow you on this.... Do you think he should have been ejected or was a 30 yard penalty acessed on the kick off punishment enough? If you want to see the video, I'm sure you can google it but I would hope that you realize that an ejection is the only way to go

I think the Ravens could have used those 30 yards considering that they lost the game by a couple of yards away from the EZ. You tell me if that hurt them enough?

Peace

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Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think the Ravens could have used those 30 yards considering that they lost the game by a couple of yards away from the EZ. You tell me if that hurt them enough?

Peace

I think you're missing the point Jeff. The Ref made a poor choice by not ejecting him from the game. Regardless if the penalty yards hurt the Ravens more or less, I feel, and I'm sure all of the other football officials on this site think the same way, that the ONLY option for an act of this nature is an ejection. You simply can not allow a player that does this to remain in the game. Why are you struggling with this? Isn't it obvious to you?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UES

I think you're missing the point Jeff. The Ref made a poor choice by not ejecting him from the game. Regardless if the penalty yards hurt the Ravens more or less, I feel, and I'm sure all of the other football officials on this site think the same way, that the ONLY option for an act of this nature is an ejection. You simply can not allow a player that does this to remain in the game. Why are you struggling with this? Isn't it obvious to you?

I am not missing anything and I am not trying to make a point. I personally do not care if he was thrown out or not. That is based on the philosophies of the NFL and their officials. I do not make a habit of trying to second guess officials I see on TV when I did not hear what was said and the league is not paying me to work the game. And you cannot use standards of amateur sports and apply them to the pro game. You never can. This is why what you see MLB Umpires do would get you fired at other levels. I personally could give a damn. They lost the game and largely did so because their team imploded at the end. Why do you care why I do not care? And if you have not noticed, I am the only person really talking to you about this. That should tell you something about the outrage. If I was not bored I might not be talking to you either.

Peace

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Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not missing anything and I am not trying to make a point. I personally do not care if he was thrown out or not. That is based on the philosophies of the NFL and their officials. I do not make a habit of trying to second guess officials I see on TV when I did not hear what was said and the league is not paying me to work the game. And you cannot use standards of amateur sports and apply them to the pro game. You never can. This is why what you see MLB Umpires do would get you fired at other levels. I personally could give a damn. They lost the game and largely did so because their team imploded at the end. Why do you care why I do not care? And if you have not noticed, I am the only person really talking to you about this. That should tell you something about the outrage. If I was not bored I might not be talking to you either.

Alright, Alright - I give up. I'm not trying to second guess NFL Officials either. Actually, just trying to get a better understanding for their thought process. As I said, I only work baseball (I have a hard enought time with balls/strikes & safes/outs - I can't imagine trying to call holding, illegal formation etc). However, I think we can all learn from each others' experiences and if I can pick something up from an official from a different sport and apply it to mine, then that's a good thing. Thanks for your thoughts

[HLin NC]

He was not ejected probably because under NFL rules it was not an ejectable offense. They let a lot of things go under the guise of "entertainment."

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Originally Posted by HLin NC

He was not ejected probably because under NFL rules it was not an ejectable offense. They let a lot of things go under the guise of "entertainment."

Really? Now that's interesting. I'm not sure I would classify Scott's act as entertainment, but if it's not an ejectable offense - then maybe the 30 yard penalty was the only other option. Thanks for your input

I know in college and NF ball, 2 unsportsmanlike conduct flags is an ejection. The NFL doesn't have that? Do they even have a limit? If not, then what the h*ll good is an unsportsmanlike conduct flag to start with?

If their limit was two, he would have been ejected. In football, an ejected player doesn't have to leave the confines of the field until an intermission or the end of the game. They're just not allowed back on the field. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that)