Questioning my T

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

What do you think? Really nothing to think about.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Forgive me, but I'm going to pick on your wording just a bit here. A literal use of the rule book requires us to determine if an advantage has been gained by the contact. Look at the definitions of "foul" and "incidental contact" in the rule book, and this becomes clear.

The dilemma is that different officials have different ways of determining an advantage. While the NFHS may want us to use a lower threshold for hand checks than for rebounds, there still needs to be some determined advantage (impeding, holding, pushing, etc.) in order for there to be a foul.

I picked on this wording because of the common phrase, "a foul is a foul." While it's a truism, it's a misleading one that assumes "contact" = "foul," and that officials have to figure out which fouls to call. That's not the case; we have to determine which contact is a foul, and call all the fouls.

Not a problem. I like your explanation better than mine. I am just simple

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JoeT

That may be.... You definitely can't when you start deciding which rules to enforce.

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well, get ready to attack me, I guess...

I know how you all hate us coaches sometimes, and we often deserve it. I'm not condoning the coach's reaction in this situation, but please try to understand where it came from and to own some of your own mismanagement that contributed to the situation you describe. By your own description, you're picking and choosing to set aside certain rules and calls for whatever reasons you have. Then, from this coach's perspective, you choose to enforce another rule that hurts his team. That is tremendously frustrating. As a coach who regularly works with very underpowered teams, I am painfully aware how a choice not to call handchecks ("because it's a JV game") gives a distinct advantage to the team that was more powerful in the first place.

If it's a handcheck - on my kid or on theirs - please call it. I often feel that my choice to teach legal "keep-your-hands-off-and-move-your-feet" defense puts my kids at a disadvantage in games where officials decide that a hand (or armbar) on the hip is going to be OK that day.
Not to mention, I've had at least one situation where this was happening, and I earned a tech for chirping about it. Nevertheless, after the tech, the officials started getting the opponents' hands off. I hate having to "take one" just to get the game called by the rules, but I have to admit, getting that tech improved the game for my players.

Fiasco,
First of all, I am definitely not known for being anything but patient with coaches, BUT, I must confess, I would have issued the "T" long before you did.

These are the situations that drive coaches CRAZY -- ESPECIALLY if they are overmatched!!! You and your partner know that a team is overmatched, yet your partner allows the opponent to ride the player for TWENTY FEET and BOTH your partner and YOU -- perhaps a little too much ball watching, here in my opinion -- PASS???

I have done my share of girls subvarsity games in the past. Some of these games are ugly no matter what we do to avoid it. But, in this case, by allowing the team that was dominating the game to ride a player all the way to the baseline (what if the point guard really wanted to get to the basket, but the defender's hands/arms pushed her to the baseline/endline instead?), you and your partner were at least partially responsible for the situation. If BOTH of you passed on the FOUL, why not pass on the travel, too???

In my opinion (I WAS NOT THERE, this is JUST AN EDUCATED GUESS), you did not issue a technical foul because you were not comfortable doing so, earlier. My guess is that you do not feel that the game was well played. You also did not think it was particularly well officiated, either.

Try to keep your focus. Call handchecks when they cause the dribbler to go in a particular direction -- particularly if the hand stays in contact with the dribbler. Make foul calls to keep the game in control. It is up to the coaches to teach the players to play within the rules. It is NOT our jobs to modify the rules because the coaches have failed to teach them.

Just my $.02 from a coach with over 30 years experience and a referee for well over a decade.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

. . . the common phrase, "a foul is a foul." While it's a truism, it's a misleading one that assumes "contact" = "foul," and that officials have to figure out which fouls to call. That's not the case; we have to determine which contact is a foul, and call all the fouls.

Perfectly worded!

Once we have determined the contact is a foul, we need to call it even if it causes the offended player to lose an opportunity for a wide open lay-up.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is why I avoid getting in discussions with coaches. Because you don't understand the role of officials. You think my job out there is to be a robot, and call everything the way you see it, as if I have some magic goggles that allow me to see things from a coach's perspective.

If I literally enforced every rule in the book to the T (no pun intended) as you suggest, you would not recognize the game as "basketball." It would be a free-throw shooting contest.

There is a concept called advantage/disadvantage that you should really learn about. We officials have to master this concept, or we don't last long because coaches like you complain that we never let their girls "play ball."

Like I said, can't win with you guys...

Hard to believe that there was NO DISADVANTAGE for a girl who was overmatched and was being ridden like a horse for 20 feet!!!

There are many difficult (and bad coaches). In the case of the coach in this thread (Joe T), I think he has been reasonable in stating his case.

My question to you is "have you ever coached?" I think the one thing that has helped me as an official more than anything else over the years of officiating is my experience as a coach. I can appreciate all of the hard work that they put in preparing their team for a game. I respect that. I respect them.

Consequently, I have tended to get along with coaches from teams that are winning and teams that are losing. I don't take a lot of grief from them -- quite honestly, I usually don't hear a whole lot. Yet, they know when the respect is no longer mutual during a game, I have to take action with the proper penalTy.

One of my pet peeves is the huge divide that officals create with coaches AND coaches create with officials. We each have a VERY difficult job to do. If we work together, the outcomes are usually pleasant.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

My question to you is "have you ever coached?"

Yes, I have. Before I began reffing, I coached for three years in a intra-collegiate basketball league. It, basically, was a glorified intramural league, but with tryouts and a draft and a lot more structure than your usual intramural league.

And I'd have to say that I never viewed the officials the way I do now. I knew nothing about advantage/disadvantage, I was unaware of all the intricacies of officiating, the rules I thought I knew and actually didn't, etc etc.

In other words, I thought I knew a whole lot about officiating until I put on a shirt and whistle and stepped out onto the court. Then I found out I knew squat.

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

95% or more of coaches, I would say, have never taken the time to not just dig into the rule book, but spend a summer reffing in their local rec league to see what it's like. So they don't know what it's like on the other side of the court. They don't know what it's like to work your ace off learning the rules and applying them on the court and doing your damndest to make sure you call a fair game and still be looked at and treated like you just killed someone's children because you dared to call a foul on someone. And they never will. And that's our job to deal with that fact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

Wow, this behavior would be stopped quickly here, I can tell you that.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

One of my pet peeves is the huge divide that officals create with coaches AND coaches create with officials. We each have a VERY difficult job to do. If we work together, the outcomes are usually pleasant.

I'm going to go out on a very large limb here and say that, in my opinion, having done both, that officials have a much harder job, within the context of one basketball game, than do coaches.

Your job as a coach is to maximize the play of your team.

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

Furthermore, coaches think it's their job to do whatever humanly possible in order to (I'm trying to think of the most respectful word here) influence the officials into calling a game that gives an advantage to their team. Whether conscious or subconscious, most coaches do this with what they talk to us about, when and how they scream at us, and their behavior in general.

The best coach, to me, is a coach who asks me questions calmly and respectfully, or doesn't talk to me at all. I make a habit of initiating as little communication as possible with coaches because I've found that it has a way of biting me in the behind. So, in that way, my job becomes harder.

Sad thing is, those coaches are very hard to find.

Boy, I'm really starting to sound like a hardened cynic, aren't I?

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wow, this behavior would be stopped quickly here, I can tell you that.

Well, I do my part, but I'm considered T-happy.

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm late to the party, and it looks like the fun has already begun.

Some random thoughts:

• The T was clearly deserved. No question.
• Negative behavior never lengthens a leash. If you allow a coach some extra leash in a certain situation, you still decide where the leash ends.
• Coaches are grown ups, and must act that way. Our empathy or sympathy must never extend to allowing a coach to behave badly.
• Snaqs is right, address behavior early. Early, a quiet word is often sufficient. One example: I worked a freshman tourney last weekend where a team was getting blown out in the third quarter. The coach, who had not previously been a problem, began to referee. I slid over next to her at the next opportunity and quietly asked, "Coach, are we okay?" Then I listened to her reply (which was not very reassuring). But she went back to coaching and that was the end of that. Sometimes it really is that easy.
• An official must develop a clear, comprehensive philosophy for managing blowouts. Knowing already how we will call the game, control the game and handle the coaches in a blowout both improves the game and reduces anxiety about whether to whack a coach.
• You write as though the crew chose which fouls to call based on managing the number of foul calls rather than managing the game. It is best to pre-game specifically where the crew will draw its various lines, then consistently call to those lines from the very first play. By the first quarter break the participants should know that tonight you're allowing "x" but not allowing "y".
• If you worry about calling "too many" hand checks, don't stop calling, start talking. Tell the kid, "Hands off!". If he does it again, call the foul then find him at a dead ball and tell him, "I'm trying to keep your number out of the book, help me out here." He'll either adapt or he will soon bench himself. Either way you will have called only the fouls necessary to clean up the game.

As always, just my $0.02

[Jimmie24]

Don't question your T. Coach deserved it long before he got it. A sitting coach is usually a very quiet coach. A quiet coach makes for a nicer game. A smart coach realized where the officials line is drawn and will not cross it. If he chooses to cross it, then he knows what the expected result is.

The best thing any official can do is communicate with the coaches and players. Tell the players to get their hands off. Call a few early, they will get the picture and start playing without their hands. Let the coaches know when he is pushing the line. But still talk to them. I agree some coaches do talk down and seem as if they want to try and pull something over on you. No matter, treat and talk to them as you want to them to treat and talk to you. Until they cross the line. Give them the T before you become emotionally involved. You will feel better about it.

I love how a coaches defense is always "well have you coached?" Does that really matter? Lots of great officials have never coached before. Doesn't mean that they love the game any less. Doesn't mean that they know the game any less. Coaches and officials need to realize that it isn't about them. This game is all about the kids. We can play without coaches, or at least another will step in, but can you play without the officials? Mutual respect goes a long ways.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Yes, I have. Before I began reffing, I coached for three years in a intra-collegiate basketball league. It, basically, was a glorified intramural league, but with tryouts and a draft and a lot more structure than your usual intramural league.

And I'd have to say that I never viewed the officials the way I do now. I knew nothing about advantage/disadvantage, I was unaware of all the intricacies of officiating, the rules I thought I knew and actually didn't, etc etc.

In other words, I thought I knew a whole lot about officiating until I put on a shirt and whistle and stepped out onto the court. Then I found out I knew squat.

I respect coaches to a point. I don't think, for the most part (emphasis added), coaches at my level (JV and below) respect officials. They don't respect what our job actually is (as opposed to what they perceive it to be). They don't respect our calls. They don't respect us as human beings, from the way they treat us (yelling, rolling their eyes, stomping their feet, talking down, etc etc). Oh, they do during the coaches meeting, and they smile and shake hands, but once the ball is tipped they become totally different people.

95% or more of coaches, I would say, have never taken the time to not just dig into the rule book, but spend a summer reffing in their local rec league to see what it's like. So they don't know what it's like on the other side of the court. They don't know what it's like to work your ace off learning the rules and applying them on the court and doing your damndest to make sure you call a fair game and still be looked at and treated like you just killed someone's children because you dared to call a foul on someone. And they never will. And that's our job to deal with that fact.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I'm going to go out on a very large limb here and say that, in my opinion, having done both, that officials have a much harder job, within the context of one basketball game, than do coaches.

Your job as a coach is to maximize the play of your team.

My job is to be judge, jury and executioner (in some cases). It is our job, as officials, to be God out on the court. We decide what is a foul and what is not.

Furthermore, coaches think it's their job to do whatever humanly possible in order to (I'm trying to think of the most respectful word here) influence the officials into calling a game that gives an advantage to their team. Whether conscious or subconscious, most coaches do this with what they talk to us about, when and how they scream at us, and their behavior in general.

The best coach, to me, is a coach who asks me questions calmly and respectfully, or doesn't talk to me at all. I make a habit of initiating as little communication as possible with coaches because I've found that it has a way of biting me in the behind. So, in that way, my job becomes harder.

Sad thing is, those coaches are very hard to find.

Boy, I'm really starting to sound like a hardened cynic, aren't I?

Originally Posted by fiasco

Well, I do my part, but I'm considered T-happy.

From reading your responses, I see somebody who today is where I was not that long ago. I realize that to some degree you're venting your general frustrations at some coaches and their "feedback". But I also see signs of having the wrong attitude and being the victim of your own lack of skills.

If you are going to make this thing work for you, you have got to do a few things well that you don't seem to be doing very well right now. You've got to be able to communicate effectively with everybody involved: partners, players, coaches, table crew, everybody. That especially means engaging (not necessarily confronting) coaches when there is an issue, not running away from them. You've got to be able to call the obvious and what matters, control the game, and do it all consistently. You're going to have to be around a while, so people have time to learn to trust you. And you've got to exude a positive attitude and show due respect toward the game and each of the participants.

You're off to a good start, and you've made some important discoveries, including that most coaches don't know the rules very well. So, now how do you take what you have learned and what you can now do and use your knowledge and skills to bridge that gap? Because the game is about them, not about us. We're just the facilitators.

[constable]

My philosophy is this:

The only technicals I regret are the ones I didn't call.

I do baseball as well. I can't tell you how many T's I've called or people I've tossed ( in both sports) but I can with a pretty good amount of certainty tell you the players and coaches that I didn't T up or throw out when I should have.

Been firm but fair. Develop your own threshold but remember not to allow unsporting behaviour to go unpunished for too long. If you don't deal with a problem in the first quarter, it will only multiply by the time the 4th rolls around.

Finally, penalize any and all personal attacks- Do your job is a classic example of one.

[BillyMac]

Defender places both hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Defender continuously places a hand on the ball-handler, it is a foul.
Defender continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
If the dribbler’s rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

Also. If dribbler's going east/west, less likely to call a hand check.
Conversely. If dribbler's going north/south, more likely to call a hand check.

And finally, advantage/disadvantage must be considerd in the case of hand checks.

This is not always an easy call.