End of game situation

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

If we have a foul at the end of the game and the clock runs out, if it is a shooting foul and the game can be won or tied with the made free throws then the game is not over and we shoot the free throws. If we have definite knowledge we put time back on the clock. If not, shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by rwest

If the coach calls a time out and we grant it prior to the buzzer then we know that the game is not over. We granted the time out before time had expired. How can the game be over?

You tell me - what does rule 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3 say about that very question?

Originally Posted by rwest

I suggest there is either a hole in the rules or we have to liberally (I can't believe I'm using the L word!) interpret definite knowledge. The game can't be over and so there must be some time on the clock. How much time I don't know, but the game is not over! It can't be. Put some time up on the clock and finish the game.

The only other solution is to say sorry coach, game over!
What happens if the visiting coach is the one who called time out and the timer let the clock run out knowing the clock doesn't show tenths of seconds? Sorry coach, I don't have definit knowledge how much time was on the clock. So since I don't have definite knowledge, game is over. That's not acceptable.

There isn't a hole in the rules. The rules tell us exactly how to handle the situation. If the officials screw up and do not have definite information, as defined by the rules, then there is nothing, by rule, that can be done.

Moral: Have a count, or look at the clock in these situations. Otherwise, follow the rules. Pretty simple, actually. Whether of not we agree with them.

If you don't think the rules are "fair", then work to be on the committee and change them. Otherwise, it makes it hard for those officials that come in after your game and follow the rules, and all they hear is, "The officials in the last game let us do this..." I don't think it's "fair" that a player and team should be penalized because their AD (or even a secretary) didn't order the proper uniform on time, but I don't get the option of letting it slide this time, because it's just not fair. I get paid to enforce the rules, as written. No more, no less.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Agreed.


You tell me - what does rule 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3 say about that very question?


There isn't a hole in the rules. The rules tell us exactly how to handle the situation. If the officials screw up and do not have definite information, as defined by the rules, then there is nothing, by rule, that can be done.

Moral: Have a count, or look at the clock in these situations. Otherwise, follow the rules. Pretty simple, actually. Whether of not we agree with them.

If you don't think the rules are "fair", then work to be on the committee and change them. Otherwise, it makes it hard for those officials that come in after your game and follow the rules, and all they hear is, "The officials in the last game let us do this..." I don't think it's "fair" that a player and team should be penalized because their AD (or even a secretary) didn't order the proper uniform on time, but I don't get the option of letting it slide this time, because it's just not fair. I get paid to enforce the rules, as written. No more, no less.

Visitors down by 1 after home team makes a basket. Clock operator is a homer. Visitors call time out and you grant it after time has gone below 1 second but before the buzzer sounds. Clock operator lets the clock run out.

Game over? You heard the request for a time out. You granted it while there still was time on the clock, just not showing on the score board.
You have definite knowledge the game is not over and that time was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge that there was less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds on the clock.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

Visitors down by 1 after home team makes a basket. Clock operator is a homer. Visitors call time out and you grant it after time has gone below 1 second but before the buzzer sounds. Clock operator lets the clock run out.

Game over? You heard the request for a time out. You granted it while there still was time on the clock, just not showing on the score board.
You have definite knowledge the game is not over and that time was still on the clock. I have definite knowledge that there was less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds on the clock.

What does the rule book say you should do?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What does the rule book say you should do?

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

Is that how the rule book defines "definite knowledge"? If so, what rule or case play are you using?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

Day or night game?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How much time you going to put back on? .2? .3? .4? .5? .6?

Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

Good example. I put back what I know should go back on. I'll set the clock at 2:10 here, because I know at least that much came off. In the OP, I don't "know" what came off after the whistle, so I can't put anything back on.

Different example. Throwin in the backcourt. You glance at the clock just before handing it and see it's at 3:00. Ball is inbounded and there's pressure so you can't look at the clock. Your BC count gets to 8, then he crosses and has a few seconds without any count before a defender approaches. You start a 5 second count and get to 3 before he passes. You look at the clock and it hasn't moved. How much time do you take off?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

Let's use another example. You call traveling. Let's say it is at the 2:15 mark. However, you didn't check to see if the clock stopped and you don't know the time when you called traveling. You look up at 2:10 and the clock is still running. At 2:05 you get the clock operator to stop the clock. Are you going to put 2:10 on the clock? If so why? Did you have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock? No! You knew that at least 5 seconds had expired but not that 10 seconds had run off. That's not definite knowledge. What are you going to do in this scenario?

Hmm...let me think...how about follow the rules? How about 5-10-1: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

So, what happens if an official didn't look at the clock? How about 5-10-2: "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction".

I've given specific rules and case plays. All you've given are "what if's" and "what's fair". I would be more than willing to listen to your arguments if you can supply some sort of rule backing to your statements.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

If you have definite knowledge. I have definite knowledge that less than 1 second but more than 0 seconds was left in the game.

Yeah, but 0.2 or 0.5? Makes a difference. I agree with whoever said I dont want to be in this situation, lets make sure we have a look. I know that is the easy way out of this one.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by cdaref

Yeah, but 0.2 or 0.5? Makes a difference.

Rulebook aside, you can look at it this way:

We know that there are finite number of possible answers (assuming the 1/10th granularity of the clock):

0.9
0.8
0.7
0.6
0.5
0.4
0.3
0.2
0.1

We also know that there is one answer that it CANNOT be:

0.0

It bugs me that we are going to choose the one single answer we know for certain is NOT the correct amount of time left in the game, because we cannot exactly determine which of the other answers is the correct one, but would have to rely on an estimate, because the books demands "definite" knowledge.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Rulebook aside

That's the problem, we can't nor should we put the rulebook aside, especially in this situation.

We also know that there is one answer that it CANNOT be:

0.0

By rule, it certainly can be.

To me, it is fairly clear that the rule makers do not want the officials to guess on the amount of time to subtract from or add to the clock. While this may not be "fair", it should provide for a consistent administration.

There are numerous rules that don't seem fair in all sports, the inadvertant whistle rule in football for example is not always "fair". I think we can get into some dangerous areas when we decide which rules to set aside because they do not meet our definition of "fair".

It bugs me that we are going to choose the one single answer we know for certain is NOT the correct amount of time left in the game,
because we cannot exactly determine which of the other answers is the correct one, but would have to rely on an estimate, because the books demands "definite" knowledge.

You should suggest a rule change then.

What do I tell the coach if I do not have definite knowledge? "Sorry coach, that's the rule."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Rulebook aside, you can look at it this way:

We know that there are finite number of possible answers (assuming the 1/10th granularity of the clock):

0.9
0.8
0.7
0.6
0.5
0.4
0.3
0.2
0.1

We also know that there is one answer that it CANNOT be:

0.0

It bugs me that we are going to choose the one single answer we know for certain is NOT the correct amount of time left in the game, because we cannot exactly determine which of the other answers is the correct one, but would have to rely on an estimate, because the books demands "definite" knowledge.

We also know it makes a difference whether you put on 0.3 or 0.4.