End of game situation

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing. You're right, if he doesn't know any better, he likely won't ask or he'll be satisfied with your answer. If he does know, then you have the two options I presented. Which are you going with?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

At this level of game, that's way too much time for this mistake. It wouldn't happen. It's even more important than ever to follow the rules here, though. If you guess 1 second, and the replay later shows .8 seconds when you blew your whistle, you're screwed.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

[rfp]

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

If it's so quick that the official looks up immediately and sees zeros, there's nothing that can be done. Up until about 2 years ago, the lag time rule would have ended the game even if the official saw .9 second on the clock anyway.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example?

Yes. I actually can.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What sort of official count are you using?

Nothing says it has to be an official count. It only says that an official count can be used. If I know, through whatever means, how much time elapsed, I can put it back.

I draw from many, many years of musical training and experience....you get used to subdividing a second into several parts and just knowing how much time has passed.

We don't have to put it all back either. For example, if the whistle sounds then, after a delay, the official looks up to see the clock still running at 1.3 seconds but the clock continues to run out, do you not agree that the official can put 1.3 back on the clock.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

In other words, what rule or case are you using to put "something" back up?

As a counter point, what do you do when the clock shows "1" until the buzzer sounds even though there is less than 1 second left. If the official sees "1", the official can put "1"...even though that is really more than should be. How is that any different?

Basically, we have the precision of the clock to work with. You can be no more precise than the clock allows. At any precision, you're still going to be doing some amount of rounding.

Just because the real time falls between the minimum precision of the clock doesn't mean you shouldn't make a correction.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rfp

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle.
...
The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

In some cases, yes...but not in this case.

In this case, the amount of time is not limited to what an official sees on the board. Any type of counting the official does on the court is a valid source of definite knowledge.

The cases were you don't need an exact time are those when you have a clock not starting and have a sequence of counts that are not continuous. Example: Throwin...backcourt count for 8 seconds....ball in front court from some time (not closely guarded)...then ball is closely guarded for 3 seconds when the official recognizes that the clock didn't start....you take 11 seconds off. It is definite knowledge since those counts were known. The remainder of the time can not be adjusted unless there is some other form of definite information.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes. I actually can.

I'm not going to disagree with you, in that I don't know you personally and your particular talents. I know as a whole, most people cannot count in tenth-of-a-second intervals, especially while officiating a very close basketball game. So hopefully you understand my skepticism when I tell you I doubt it, and it sounds like a little bit like justification in trying to put "something" back on the clock.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nothing says it has to be an official count. It only says that an official count can be used. If I know, through whatever means, how much time elapsed, I can put it back.

Through whatever means? Possibly, but guessing and estimating shouldn't be one of those means.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We don't have to put it all back either. For example, if the whistle sounds then, after a delay, the official looks up to see the clock still running at 1.3 seconds but the clock continues to run out, do you not agree that the official can put 1.3 back on the clock.

Agreed. But with your talent of counting in tenths, wouldn't you know how much extra to put back on?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As a counter point, what do you do when the clock shows "1" until the buzzer sounds even though there is less than 1 second left. If the official sees "1", the official can put "1"...even though that is really more than should be. How is that any different?

It isn't. However, realistically, I cannot remember any scoreboard clocks that do not show tenths that operate in this manner. All of the ones I've been in contact with immediately drop to 7:59 when turned on after starting with an 8:00 minute quarter.

[flaref]

If I made the call at the end of the game..then I already know there aren't tenths on the clock from the previous three buzzers....If I am going to grant a time out..then I have "definate knowledge" that there was 1 second on the clock......whether there was or wasn't....no ifs, ands, or buts....no splitting hairs necessary......whether I actually know or not,there was 1 second..there has to be.....I don't need to ask my partners....i don't need to ask the timer.....I blow the whistle.. I hear the horn...I call the timeout.....I walk over to the timer and tell him to put :01 back on.....go over to the coaches and tell them thats what I saw as i blew the whistle..then meet with my partners to discuss last second coverage...The likelihood of the trailing team scoring is closer to none than even slim and is far surpassed by the fairness of which the situation is handled by putting a full second on the clock....