Jump ball or out of bounds?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

This is the short version since I lost my length disertation :

We are talking about

A) 4.25.1 ONLY; ie A1 has ball foot/feet on court not dribbling.
B) A1 and B1 only have one hand a piece on the ball
C) "control cannot be obtained without undue roughness"
D) rough is described as : "Characterized by violent motion"; "characterized by unnecessary violence or infractions of the rules"; "acting with or characterized by violence:" (ref; rough; - definition of rough; by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. rough definition | Dictionary.com)

Remembering the definition of "rough", I cannot see how a held ball can occur when A1 and B1 only have one hand on the ball. Even "muscling the ball does not fit under the description of rough. Perhaps it is due to lack of experience on court.

On the other hand if 3 or more players are involved then I would agree with you, but now we have 3 or more hands