Jump ball or out of bounds?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Are you suggesting that if the defender keeps the shooter from getting his shot off, but then the shooter tries a second time and succeeds that the defender actually prevented the first attempted shot? Do you mean to suggest that the successful try was really ... oh, I don't know, another play?

Can't be right. That makes too much sense.

Agree.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Disagree.
PS This is exactly the play that I had in mind when writing earlier that you are mistaken. You are screwing the defensive player and giving the offensive player an opportunity which he doesn't deserve.

Do you also count the goal when an airborne player in the act of shooting is fouled causing him to lose control of the ball, but he is able to regain it while still in the air and shoot and score? In order to be consistent you would have to count that second attempt as "the same play."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Do you also count the goal when an airborne player in the act of shooting is fouled causing him to lose control of the ball, but he is able to regain it while still in the air and shoot and score? In order to be consistent you would have to count that second attempt as "the same play."

I don't see what one play has to do with the other. In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating. As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it. The 2nd defender blocked my shot. There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

I see a lot of athletic plays where I live and officiate. I have seen players get their shot "capped" and still get their shot away from all kinds of crazy angles AND make the basket. The case play you referenced earlier in the thread did not address plays in which an airborne shooter is actually able get his shot off after initially getting it "capped".

BTW, in your quoted play above my instincts would be to count the basket. Now, if there is a rule/case/interp from NCAA and/or NFHS that says my instinct is wrong then I will adjust accordingly.

Oh yeah, I forgot: In honor of our more kinder, gentler forum.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't see what one play has to do with the other.

They both involve a player making an extraordinary play. With a dead ball.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating.

Nice defensive play.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it.

Very nice, athletic play on your part. Too bad it doesn't count.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The 2nd defender blocked my shot.

Nice play on his part. Won't help his stats though.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

Now that may be true. We could have a very ... enthusiastic discussion about whether this reaction falls into the "that way it's really done" category. Same with the play where the shooter gets capped, and then loses the ball. I've never seen either of these plays blown dead immediately.

But, by rule, it's a held ball, the ball is dead, and the extraordinary second effort is irrelevant.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Nice defensive play.

No held ball situation is a nice play...it is a compromise play where neither team is entirely deserving of the ball. That is the entire basis of resuming with either a jump or a possession arrow.

If it were really that nice of a defensive play, the defender would have taken the ball from the offensive player by either grabbing the ball or knocking it away from the shooter.

If the shooter is able to adjust and release the shot before landing, what was prevented? Of course, in a majority of a cases, it will prevent the shot, I'm not killing the play until it is clear the shot was prevented. If the defender can't prevent the shooter from releasing the shot, they haven't earned anything.

Once the shooter is in the air, all motions are part of the same shot attempt as long as the shooter maintains control of the ball. Who would cancel the shot of a shooter that goes up with the ball in the left hand and switches to the right hand to complete the shot just because they were fouled prior to shifting the ball to the right hand. It is really two halves of the same attempt, not two seperate attempts.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Once the shooter is in the air, all motions are part of the same shot attempt as long as the shooter maintains control of the ball.

This is debatable.

Who would cancel the shot of a shooter that goes up with the ball in the left hand and switches to the right hand to complete the shot just because they were fouled prior to shifting the ball to the right hand.

A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is debatable.



A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

But is it really held at all? I find it pretty hard to explain that the release was prevented as the ball is dropping out of the net.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But is it really held at all? I find it pretty hard to explain that the release was prevented as the ball is dropping out of the net.

When is a held ball a held ball? There is no simple answer.

4-25-2 could have just as easily stated:

.......prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball........before he returns to the floor.


but it doesn't. We must see each play and decide when to make the call. Whatever happens after that, including a release, is irrelevant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A foul does not cause the ball to become dead. A held ball call does.

Perhaps, but after a foul, the ball becomes dead when the "try" ends.