Jump ball or out of bounds?

[just another ref]

The key to this is how we interpret the word "prevents."

An opponent.......... prevents an airborne player from releasing the ball.



Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

[Back In The Saddle]

Are you suggesting that if the defender keeps the shooter from getting his shot off, but then the shooter tries a second time and succeeds that the defender actually prevented the first attempted shot? Do you mean to suggest that the successful try was really ... oh, I don't know, another play?

Can't be right. That makes too much sense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The key to this is how we interpret the word "prevents."

An opponent.......... prevents an airborne player from releasing the ball.



Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Sorry for not answering earlier, to this and your other post.

I still stand by what i said.

If i read you statement rightly "is able to release the ball" means that the opponent did not prevent the ball release at any point that they were airborne. thus no held ball.
hence my statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti
But from your own MSG7 you were able to release it, thus you were not prevented thus no held ball.

Which from this post you concurr

On the other hand if the opponent had such a firm hand on the ball that you could not release the ball then a held ball.

I would not blow the whistle on "touching of the ball" that is not "preventing" a release, in this case you are right "wait to blow your whistle and NOT to immediately call a held ball." on the other hand once I see an offensive player and defensive player cup the ball tightly a Held ball shoudl be called.

From this an other previous postings we should ask How much effort was made to release the ball and was there any time in this struggle when the ball was held tightly between the offensive and defensive players? (Easier said then done)? If there was then a "held ball" is the right rulling and an immediate whistle is required or so I think.

From the OP, one can only assume that a release was not initiated (ie no air between offensive hand and ball before the "stuffed" situation occurs. If this is the case held ball (not jump ball as mentioned in OP, only mention for clarity sake) should be ruled, If there was air between the offensive hand and the defender before the stuffing then we have a new thread....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

From this an other previous postings we should ask How much effort was made to release the ball and was there any time in this struggle when the ball was held tightly between the offensive and defensive players? (Easier said then done)? If there was then a "held ball" is the right rulling and an immediate whistle is required or so I think.

Other than adding that in these situations, the benefit of the doubt goes to a held ball (IOW, I wouldn't ask "how much" effort was made); I'd say you're showing good judgment. I think you're making it too difficult. It's a quick judgment call, and you won't have time to ask these questions before rendering a call.

One question, "Did the defender prevent the release?" If there is any doubt whatsoever in your mind, it's a held ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. The same play takes place with the offensive player standing on the floor. He raises the ball to shoot. The defender is there waiting for him. He effectively prevents the release.

Question: How long does contact have to be maintained before you whistle a held ball?

Answer: There is no specific amount of time.

Therefore, is it conceivable for the above to take place while the player is airborne? It may be the exception and not the rule, but no doubt in my mind it could happen.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. .

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

Agree the word "prevents" does

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Agree the word "prevents" does

yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

[just another ref]

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

I disagree. The defender must prevent the airborne player from releasing the ball on a try/pass...not just delay the release. Until the airborne player lands, the defender has not yet prevented that player form releasing the ball on a try/pass. If the defense had truly made a play that was deserving of reward, they would have knocked or grabbed the ball out of the shooter's hands. Short of that the defense deserves nothing if the offense can still complete the shot before landing.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponet places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponent places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.