Jump ball or out of bounds?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. The same play takes place with the offensive player standing on the floor. He raises the ball to shoot. The defender is there waiting for him. He effectively prevents the release.

Question: How long does contact have to be maintained before you whistle a held ball?

Answer: There is no specific amount of time.

Therefore, is it conceivable for the above to take place while the player is airborne? It may be the exception and not the rule, but no doubt in my mind it could happen.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. .

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

Agree the word "prevents" does

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Agree the word "prevents" does

yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

yep. two separate articles make for two separate scenarios.

Regardless. The premesis of "just an other ref" is not correct since if an offensive player was standing on the ground about to shoot and a defender puts a hand on the ball, not held ball according to 4.25.

Perhaps I mis read the post of " just another ref". Will go revisit

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Regardless. The premesis of "just an other ref" is not correct since if an offensive player was standing on the ground about to shoot and a defender puts a hand on the ball, not held ball according to 4.25.

Perhaps I mis read the post of " just another ref". Will go revisit

Nope, you got it right.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

[just another ref]

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.

A mid-air pump fake does not habitually precede the release of the ball. Therefore the pull back and subsequent release is another try. When the first try was not released, it became certain that it was unsuccessful. The defender prevented the release.

Held Ball

I disagree. The defender must prevent the airborne player from releasing the ball on a try/pass...not just delay the release. Until the airborne player lands, the defender has not yet prevented that player form releasing the ball on a try/pass. If the defense had truly made a play that was deserving of reward, they would have knocked or grabbed the ball out of the shooter's hands. Short of that the defense deserves nothing if the offense can still complete the shot before landing.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponet places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Please read my full post.

If a player is on the GROUND and is about to try and the opponent places a hand on the ball preventing the try, this is NOT a held ball,

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

I am still debating internally how this and Camron post fall under the "undue roughness", I still do not see how it is possible, but I will get back with my definitive answer shortly

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It could be. The shooter puts it up, meets resistance, but rather than pulling back tries to muscle it through the defender.

After (insert description of an indefinite amount of time here), held ball.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

This is the short version since I lost my length disertation :

We are talking about

A) 4.25.1 ONLY; ie A1 has ball foot/feet on court not dribbling.
B) A1 and B1 only have one hand a piece on the ball
C) "control cannot be obtained without undue roughness"
D) rough is described as : "Characterized by violent motion"; "characterized by unnecessary violence or infractions of the rules"; "acting with or characterized by violence:" (ref; rough; - definition of rough; by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. rough definition | Dictionary.com)

Remembering the definition of "rough", I cannot see how a held ball can occur when A1 and B1 only have one hand on the ball. Even "muscling the ball does not fit under the description of rough. Perhaps it is due to lack of experience on court.

On the other hand if 3 or more players are involved then I would agree with you, but now we have 3 or more hands

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

This is the short version since I lost my length disertation :

We are talking about

A) 4.25.1 ONLY; ie A1 has ball foot/feet on court not dribbling.
B) A1 and B1 only have one hand a piece on the ball
C) "control cannot be obtained without undue roughness"
D) rough is described as : "Characterized by violent motion"; "characterized by unnecessary violence or infractions of the rules"; "acting with or characterized by violence:" (ref; rough; - definition of rough; by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. rough definition | Dictionary.com)

Remembering the definition of "rough", I cannot see how a held ball can occur when A1 and B1 only have one hand on the ball. Even "muscling the ball does not fit under the description of rough. Perhaps it is due to lack of experience on court.

On the other hand if 3 or more players are involved then I would agree with you, but now we have 3 or more hands

Ever seen a player tuck the ball in their arm like a football, holding the ball between their hand/arm and their body?? Imagine two players doing it at the same time...wrestling for a rebound perhaps. And, yes, I've seen plays like this more than a few times.