Jump ball or out of bounds?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, this may be the issue. 4-25-2 says, "A held ball occurs when...an opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try." If they have to land, they wouldn't be airborne anymore, right?

They have to land before you can call the held ball, but the held ball occurred before they landed.

It's like lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released: you have to see whether it's released for a dribble or a pass. The travel happens when the pivot foot is lifted, but you can call a violation only after the player dribbles.

I do some metaphysics and other hair splitting for my day job.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

They have to land before you can call the held ball, but the held ball occurred before they landed.

I do some metaphysics and other hair splitting for my day job.

I agree here.

I don't agree here. Where does it say you have to wait to make the call? Now, I agree that many officials may wait to see if the ball truly was prevented from being released before the player landed, or, in other words, having a patient whistle to watch the whole play. But I don't know of any requirement that the player has to land before the call is "official", so to speak. In your traveling example, what happens after the player releases the ball is important in determing whether a violation occured - was it a dribble or pass? In the held ball example, the held ball occured in the air, so there's no requirement to wait.

See, I can hair-split with the best of them.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I agree here.

I don't agree here. Where does it say you have to wait to make the call?

What if the ball is released before the shooter returns to the floor?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What if the ball is released before the shooter returns to the floor?

If the shooter attempt to release the ball for a try or the throw was prevented, what happened after is moot. Held Ball

On the other hand if the shooter jumped in the air and as the defender was approaching dropped the ball on the floor, very different situation.

Perhaps a bit more details is required please.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

If the shooter attempt to release the ball for a try or the throw was prevented, what happened after is moot. Held Ball

...

Perhaps a bit more details is required please.

MSG #7 from me gives an example:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm waiting. I've had my shot capped a few times but was still strong enough to release it before I landed. In fact it happened to me today in lunch-time ball. Unfortunately a 2nd defender swatted my sh!t.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

MSG #7 from me gives an example:

But from your own MSG7 you were able to release it, thus you were not prevented thus no held ball.

[hoopguy]

I have not seen a convincing argument for the held ball vs out of bounds. Still unsure about the correct ruling but still leaning toward out of bounds. To dispute some of the points above for held ball.

The player must land before blowing the wistle for jump ball. Case 4.25.2 supports this. Common sense also supports this. Try blowing the whistle for a jump ball on the touch for block and then the offensive player while still airborne pumps and makes the shot. You call jump and see what your evaluator or assignor thinks of that call. good luck!!

Traveling -
Player lifts pivot foot and dribbles the ball out of bounds. I call out of bounds. Nothing in rules or case refer to whether this is traveling or oob so a case could be made either way but an oob call will be the easier call to sell.

Player jumps in the air and lands out of bounds. I call out of bounds not traveling.

Another argument for the out of bounds call, case 4.23.3a - 'player called for blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position.' My argument is that the defensive player is out of bounds and therefore can't get the jump ball call using the same reasoning as the legal guarding postion. To call jump ball you would be rewarding a defensive player who is not a legal defender.

What if defensive player b1 is standing out of bounds and never jumps and is tall enough to block the shot and player a1 comes down with the ball. This is obviously oob. Not like the op but neither are the lifting the pivot foot and dribling in bounds or jumping and landing in bounds with the ball.

At this point I do not see a clear rules interpretation of this call and I think both arguments are valid but I am leaning toward oob.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

But from your own MSG7 you were able to release it, thus you were not prevented thus no held ball.

Which is why you need to wait to blow your whistle and NOT to immediately call a held ball.

Remember, you posted this earlier:

Originally Posted by ILMalti

If the shooter attempt to release the ball for a try or the throw was prevented, what happened after is moot. Held Ball...

Originally Posted by mbyron

They have to land before you can call the held ball, but the held ball occurred before they landed.

So A1 jumps to shoot the ball, B5 caps the ball so it cannot be released. Are you saying we shouldn't call the held ball until they land??

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

So A1 jumps to shoot the ball, B5 caps the ball so it cannot be released. Are you saying we shouldn't call the held ball until they land??

I'm waiting. I've had my shot capped a few times but was still strong enough to release it before I landed. In fact it happened to me today in lunch-time ball. Unfortunately a 2nd defender swatted my sh!t.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm waiting. I've had my shot capped a few times but was still strong enough to release it before I landed. In fact it happened to me today in lunch-time ball. Unfortunately a 2nd defender swatted my sh!t.

The rule says a held ball if "... control cannot to obtained without undue roughness (4.25.1)
and as in your case
"... prevents an airborne player from...." (4.25.2)

neither seem to apply here


Hopefully a shooting foul was called

Originally Posted by ILMalti

This situation is clearly covered by 4.25.2
"An opponent places his/her hand on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

The OP and this is covered under situation for 4.25.2

HELD ball is the correct call

Yes, I'm aware of the rule. The question was about, waiting for them to land before ruling on the play as mbyron stated.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm waiting. I've had my shot capped a few times but was still strong enough to release it before I landed. In fact it happened to me today in lunch-time ball. Unfortunately a 2nd defender swatted my sh!t.

You called the foul, right

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Yes, I'm aware of the rule. The question was about, waiting for them to land before ruling on the play as mbyron stated.



You called the foul, right

The held ball came first Therefore held ball is called. When they left the floor I assume both playes were inbound

I did edit my post

Thank you I hope for a good call once in awhile

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

So A1 jumps to shoot the ball, B5 caps the ball so it cannot be released. Are you saying we shouldn't call the held ball until they land??

This situation is clearly covered by 4.25.2
"An opponent places his/her hand on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

The OP and this is covered under situation for 4.25.2

since a held ball came first; HELD ball is the correct call