Stay out of my pond!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Are you kidding me? I have two DVRs - trying to keep from paying for a third - and my desktop has a TV tuner card in it. I just wasn't recording the game.

I hope to see you too, but this new ownership group isn't cooperating.

I have a feeling they will show this play on SportsCenter. Or the College Gameday show.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

He didn't call a foul because the saw a slight touch by the MSU player.

He called a foul because he was too fair away and he saw the KU player foul.

#2 stepped toward the thrower, making a completely legal move. There was slight contact as you say but it was not a foul and should not have been called.

It's unbeleivable and a bad call because he had no business making it, because the trail was right there and because the trail passed on it. I would bet he didn't get a strong grade on the call.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have a feeling they will show this play on SportsCenter. Or the College Gameday show.

Peace

Why would they show a play that was rightly officiated?!?
Tremendous get by the lead as that player started in his primary and he stayed with the play. I don't know what TV you were watching but it was clearly a tripping foul. The MSt player extended his foot outside his vertical plane causing contact with the Kansas player. Great call!!!!!

[BBall_Junkie]

Tom... go to ncaa.com and follow the link to watch the games on line. There you can see the whole game video. Play happens with 34 secs to go in second half. Fast forward to 2:08:48 and that will be it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unlike you I am not claiming he blew the call based on what was ignored. This was clearly missed because there was no contact, not a play that we have to slow down to know what happen on a travel. And this was one call, not something that was chronic all night. Then again, you do not know basics of college officiating.

So you're saying it is ok to criticize one missed call, but not ok to mention something thats occurrence was "chronic all night." Chronic all year (and beyond) is more accurate. If that's a basic of anything, you're right, I don't understand it.

[mutantducky]

ugh those announcers got annoying at the end.
YES, we know it may work out and it may not. Really insightful buddy.
Initially they thought it was a great call.
I thought it could have been a foul but perhaps a no-call would have been better. Looked like incidental contact if there was any contact which wasn't clear. For most of the game the officiating was fine.


btw- kind of seems out of character for some people here to be criticizing calls when I've seen other posters do it and they get ripped for it by the same people...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you're saying it is ok to criticize one missed call, but not ok to mention something thats occurrence was "chronic all night." Chronic all year (and beyond) is more accurate. If that's a basic of anything, you're right, I don't understand it.

There is a difference between saying one call or even two calls were wrong, than saying, "They are just ignoring the rule" and "I cannot understand why these guys constantly miss travels."

This was one call and was missed for mechanical reasons, not just a missed call because the video showed it was missed. The trail and his reaction appeared he did not know what the Lead called.

And as someone that is actually in a position to evaluate officials in camps, the first question I would have asked the Trail is "What did you see?" It is likely that the trail did not see the same thing the lead did and that would be the basis of the discussion. That is very different than accusing every official at a level ignoring something on where you only can tell this by replay and we can debate when a pivot foot is established. And the way this entire discussion was started was because the OPer (Tony) wanted to illustrate that not only the call was wrong, but why. I do not recall your position in the other thread was why these calls were missed or even referenced the mechanics (maybe you do not do much 3 person). This was as much about the mechanics and the call.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

Why would they show a play that was rightly officiated?!?
Tremendous get by the lead as that player started in his primary and he stayed with the play. I don't know what TV you were watching but it was clearly a tripping foul. The MSt player extended his foot outside his vertical plane causing contact with the Kansas player. Great call!!!!!

I just looked at the replay.

There was a MSU player (#1) standing with his back to the end line and facing the thrower from Kansas. Number #15 from Kansas runs by the MSU #1 and did not make any contact while stepping out to defend the pass. MSU #1 had position to go for the ball as #15 from Kansas is running behind him. Number 1 from MSU is trailing #15 from Kansas and he is about 2 strides behind #15. As the #15 from Kansas goes and gets the ball, he stubbles by having his right foot, hit his left foot and he falls to the floor.

Let us say for argument sake that #1 for MSU made contact with Kansas #15, I do not know how the MSU player could be called for a foul as he was not facing the Kansas player and if any contact took place, I think it would have been incidental at best because he was in a better position to go after the ball. If the MSU player would have went after the ball, the Kansas player would have went through his back. MSU #1 for some reason stopped moving towards the ball and kept his defensive position. And based on the little I saw in the second half, that would not have been a foul. All this action took place about 5 to 10 feet outside of the 3 point line. Let us say for a moment the call was correct, that was a long way to get that call. The Center would have been a better help on this play. And if you look at the Trail, he looks like he did not know what just happened. His arms were out as if to suggest, "What you got." I am sure he did not want to give that body language, but that is what it looked like. The player fell at the division line.

The only players that made any significant contact, were the two MSU players.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just looked at the replay.

There was a MSU player (#1) standing with his back to the end line and facing the thrower from Kansas. Number #15 from Kansas runs by the MSU #1 and did not make any contact while stepping out to defend the pass. MSU #1 had position to go for the ball as #15 from Kansas is running behind him. Number 1 from MSU is trailing #15 from Kansas and he is about 2 strides behind #15. As the #15 from Kansas goes and gets the ball, he stubbles by having his right foot, hit his left foot and he falls to the floor.

Let us say for argument sake that #1 for MSU made contact with Kansas #15, I do not know how the MSU player could be called for a foul as he was not facing the Kansas player and if any contact took place, I think it would have been incidental at best because he was in a better position to go after the ball. If the MSU player would have went after the ball, the Kansas player would have went through his back. MSU #1 for some reason stopped moving towards the ball and kept his defensive position. And based on the little I saw in the second half, that would not have been a foul. All this action took place about 5 to 10 feet outside of the 3 point line. Let us say for a moment the call was correct, that was a long way to get that call. The Center would have been a better help on this play. And if you look at the Trail, he looks like he did not know what just happened. His arms were out as if to suggest, "What you got." I am sure he did not want to give that body language, but that is what it looked like. The player fell at the division line.

The only players that made any significant contact, were the two MSU players.

Peace

I think the lead guessed.

He saw the player fall, and thought the trail, who was maybe eight feet away, got screened out or something.

On such a big play, he thought they needed a crew-saving call.

He was wrong.

My $0.02

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

You have noted a very key point.
We are seeing the angle that the Trail had. The horizontal view, looking across the court from the side. From this front-end POV it is difficult to tell if the right foot of the KU player makes contact with the left calf of the MSU player. Depth perception is not easy with this angle.
However, it seems that the Lead, positioned on the end line and looking vertically up the court, would have a great angle to see if contact occurred in such a manner.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just looked at the replay.

There was a MSU player (#1) standing with his back to the end line and facing the thrower from Kansas. Number #15 from Kansas runs by the MSU #1 and did not make any contact while stepping out to defend the pass. MSU #1 had position to go for the ball as #15 from Kansas is running behind him. Number 1 from MSU is trailing #15 from Kansas and he is about 2 strides behind #15. As the #15 from Kansas goes and gets the ball, he stubbles by having his right foot, hit his left foot and he falls to the floor.

Let us say for argument sake that #1 for MSU made contact with Kansas #15, I do not know how the MSU player could be called for a foul as he was not facing the Kansas player and if any contact took place, I think it would have been incidental at best because he was in a better position to go after the ball. If the MSU player would have went after the ball, the Kansas player would have went through his back. MSU #1 for some reason stopped moving towards the ball and kept his defensive position. And based on the little I saw in the second half, that would not have been a foul. All this action took place about 5 to 10 feet outside of the 3 point line. Let us say for a moment the call was correct, that was a long way to get that call. The Center would have been a better help on this play. And if you look at the Trail, he looks like he did not know what just happened. His arms were out as if to suggest, "What you got." I am sure he did not want to give that body language, but that is what it looked like. The player fell at the division line.

The only players that made any significant contact, were the two MSU players.

Nowhere in your analysis do you discuss MSU #2, Raymar Morgan. It is MSU #2, with the black knee brace on his left leg, who was charged with the foul for tripping KU #15, Tyshawn Taylor, not MSU #1, Kalin Lucas. Pay no attention to MSU #1, Kalin Lucas. He arrives late and afterwards.

Please take another look and focus on the lower left leg of MSU #2 and the right foot of KU #15 as he runs behind him. (1:39 or 1:40 on the video clip)

YouTube - Sweet 16: Kansas vs. Michigan State

From ESPN.com play-by-play (Kansas Jayhawks vs. Michigan State Spartans - Play by Play - March 27, 2009 - ESPN

0:32

60-63

Foul on Raymar Morgan

Perhaps this was clearer to me because I am also a soccer referee. This kind of contact is very common in a soccer game.

I think that the Lead will be rewarded with a trip to the Final Four because of this call. We'll have to wait and see.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I just want to step in and say that the T was Michael Stephens and not Reggie Greenwood. I know Reggie and it certainly wasn't him.

You are correct. I watched Mike Stephens work in Boise during the first weekend.
Officials: Jamie Luckie ,Doug Sirmons ,Michael Stephens

Now did Luckie or Sirmons make this call?

Originally Posted by tomegun

Nevada, do you have a link to the play? It didn't look like a foul to me, but I want to look at it again to see what you are saying.

Just found it on youtube and posted the link in my previous post.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I just watched the game this morning. I saw it the same as you. MSU #2 getting into a defensive stance extends his left leg which trips up the Kansas player.

JP

[walter]

Watching it last night live and then watching it this morning, I believe it is a foul. A view from the lead would be better to see it but it sure looks like to me that #2 from MSU stuck his leg out into the path of the KU player causing the trip. Coming right at the trail like it was, he may have had a hard time seeing it. He had a lot of action coming right at him.