Stay out of my pond!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

Still I don't think I would reach that far to get it when it is that close. I think you have to let the trail live and die with that.

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

You have noted a very key point.
We are seeing the angle that the Trail had. The horizontal view, looking across the court from the side. From this front-end POV it is difficult to tell if the right foot of the KU player makes contact with the left calf of the MSU player. Depth perception is not easy with this angle.
However, it seems that the Lead, positioned on the end line and looking vertically up the court, would have a great angle to see if contact occurred in such a manner.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I just watched the game this morning. I saw it the same as you. MSU #2 getting into a defensive stance extends his left leg which trips up the Kansas player.

JP

[walter]

Watching it last night live and then watching it this morning, I believe it is a foul. A view from the lead would be better to see it but it sure looks like to me that #2 from MSU stuck his leg out into the path of the KU player causing the trip. Coming right at the trail like it was, he may have had a hard time seeing it. He had a lot of action coming right at him.

[mick]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

Still I don't think I would reach that far to get it when it is that close. I think you have to let the trail live and die with that.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I have not seen a link this morning, but last night I think I saw what you folks say.

Throughout this discussion, it has not been mentioned that #2 was guarding someone else and paying no attention to the player that was tripped.
Contact was made on the back or side? of #2's leg and the player that tripped must have some responsibility for running too close to, and from behind #2, who was playing good, legal defense when the contact was made.

I've got incidental contact forced by the tripped player from behind.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by mick

I have not seen a link this morning, but last night I think I saw what you folks say.

Throughout this discussion, it has not been mentioned that #2 was guarding someone else and paying no attention to the player that was tripped.
Contact was made on the back or side? of #2's leg and the player that tripped must have some responsibility for running too close to, and from behind #2, who was playing good, legal defense when the contact was made.

I've got incidental contact forced by the tripped player from behind.

Piggy-backing on some of Mick's phrasing here because last night, I THINK I saw a key that hasn't been mentioned. The live telecast showed a somewhat overhead shot and -- THERE WAS CLEARANCE between Nos. 2 and 15.

The guy who "got tripped" actually was trying to avoid his teammate's defender (No. 2) -- and he performed what I believe is called a "karaoke" move ala a linebacker drill (twisting the hips and putting one leg behind another while running sideways). Except he kicked his own foot.

The YouTube clip could never show this because it is a straight horizontal shot and you don't have the depth perception. Same reason the Trail couldn't make the call (if there was one to make, that is). Appears the Lead thought he had a better angle -- just might have been fooled, too. Need to see that other camera angle!

[Kelvin green]

Dont think this started at lead and was enough for lead to chase


I did a freeze frame graphic but could not get it to go here-I am still not good at forum magic...


http://saltlakeproambasketball.info/graphic.aspx you can see the separation between O and D and where the ball is...

I think by the time player gets to ball he is free of the defenders he is trying to get away from. Any contact is incidental....He was going between two defenders.

Common sense says the play is not going to originate very low (FT line area) which is periphery of lead... Based on where it started C has just as good a look through...

Tourney advancement should be based on crews...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

He didn't call a foul because the saw a slight touch by the MSU player.

He called a foul because he was too fair away and he saw the KU player foul.

#2 stepped toward the thrower, making a completely legal move. There was slight contact as you say but it was not a foul and should not have been called.

It's unbeleivable and a bad call because he had no business making it, because the trail was right there and because the trail passed on it. I would bet he didn't get a strong grade on the call.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If you saw the end of the MSU-KU game, then you saw exactly why you don't fish in somebody else's pond.

With less than a minute to play, KU inbounds the ball at the division line. K1 races to the throw-in, TRIPS over his OWN feet, catches the ball and falls near the division line. The LEAD races out and calls a MSU foul, with the trail looking at him like he's got two heads.

Unbelievable, bad call.

The title of this thread is exactly what's wrong with men's college officiating. Too much ego and not nearly enough teamwork. This was an example of a play that started in the lead's primary, especially based on where the Trail was, and he stayed connected to the play and continued to officiate as there was nothing between him and those players. The mechanics are in place as a guide. It doesn't mean you don't extend your coverage area when the players dictate it. Nobody cares if you officiate the heck out of zero players in your "primary" if there is crap going on elsewhere that fails to get called. Anybody can officiate the wood or the paint on the floor. For anybody that claims this was not a foul, I would have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic principles of officiating. Again, great call by the lead - Sirmons. By the way, Jamie Luckie has had 3 outstanding games so far in this tournament. I don't know him but based on his performance thus far I think he is a lock for the Final Four.

"Nowhere in your analysis do you discuss MSU #2, Raymar Morgan. It is MSU #2, with the black knee brace on his left leg, who was charged with the foul for tripping KU #15, Tyshawn Taylor, not MSU #1, Kalin Lucas. Pay no attention to MSU #1, Kalin Lucas. He arrives late and afterwards."

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by refguy

Too much ego and not nearly enough teamwork. This was an example of a play that started in the lead's primary, especially based on where the Trail was, and he stayed connected to the play and continued to officiate as there was nothing between him and those players. The mechanics are in place as a guide. It doesn't mean you don't extend your coverage area when the players dictate it. Nobody cares if you officiate the heck out of zero players in your "primary" if there is crap going on elsewhere that fails to get called. Anybody can officiate the wood or the paint on the floor. For anybody that claims this was not a foul, I would have trouble believing that they know how to apply the basic principles of officiating.

It was not a foul.

Your analysis is a pile of crap. The PLAY did NOT start in the lead's primary. The throw-in may have started in the lead's primary but the PLAY occurred directly in front of the trail and well outside of the lead's primary. The PLAY is the slight contact(if any) that may have happened. And you're dumping on the trail who was in great position to make that call in his primary if he thought that there was a call that needed to be made.

All officials will make a bad call on occasion. This was one of those occasions.

You're not talking about a train wreck here. You're advocating calling a very iffy touch foul that is right in front of one of your partners and way out of your primary. What you are advocating is utter nonsense from a basic officiating standpoint!

[JugglingReferee]

Popcorn.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Old_School

It was not a foul.

Your analysis is a pile of crap. The PLAY did NOT start in the lead's primary. The throw-in may have started in the lead's primary but the PLAY occurred directly in front of the trail and well outside of the lead's primary. The PLAY is the slight contact(if any) that may have happened. And you're dumping on the trail who was in great position to make that call in his primary if he thought that there was a call that needed to be made.

All officials will make a bad call on occasion. This was one of those occasions.

You're not talking about a train wreck here. You're advocating calling a very iffy touch foul that is right in front of one of your partners and way out of your primary. What you are advocating is utter nonsense from a basic officiating standpoint!

Where did I dump on the trail?!? I don't think the Trail could have seen the contact based on where he was and where the players were. He didn't call it because he didn't see it, not because it wasn't a foul. Show me where "train wreck" appears in the manual or rule book. Someone needs to learn or re-read the definition of a foul - Contact which creates a disadvantage to a player. The player went to the floor and was about to commit an over and back violation.
Question: If a shooter pulls up for a 15 foot shot on the baseline 4 feet from the lead and gets hit on the right elbow away from the lead, and you see it as trail, you're not calling it because it's not a train wreck? I referee 1st for the players and to get the play right.

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by refguy

Someone needs to learn or re-read the definition of a foul - Contact which creates a disadvantage to a player.

Yes, someone certainly does need to learn the the definition of a foul. You left out the key word in the definition--"illegal". You can have legal or "incidental" contact that also will create a disadvantage to a player. That isn't a foul. It seems that you really don't understand the concept.

You also need to learn what a "play" is. Someone without the ball running completely untouched through an official's primary is not part of any "play" that needs to be adjudicated. In the situation being discussed, the actual "play" started well outside of the lead's primary.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Old_School

Yes, someone certainly does need to learn the the definition of a foul. You left out the key word in the definition--"illegal". You can have legal or "incidental" contact that also will create a disadvantage to a player. That isn't a foul. It seems that you really don't understand the concept.

You also need to learn what a "play" is. Someone without the ball running completely untouched through an official's primary is not part of any "play" that needs to be adjudicated. In the situation being discussed, the actual "play" started well outside of the lead's primary.

Question: Does an official's primary change based on the location of the players or simply it is always as drawn in a diagram in the book? White #2 stuck his leg out - outside of his vertical plane right before #15 came through causing 15 to trip and fall down.
Question: A player is set for 5 seconds with his feet wider than his vertical plane and an opponent trips over his foot. Foul?