Stay out of my pond!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

Still I don't think I would reach that far to get it when it is that close. I think you have to let the trail live and die with that.

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think you hit the nail on the head. The last minute of the game is on youtube.
You can watch in HD and get a good look at the "redirection." If a shot from the endline comes up somewhere, I think we will see what the lead saw. I think it's a great call, whether it's a proper mechanic or not.

You have noted a very key point.
We are seeing the angle that the Trail had. The horizontal view, looking across the court from the side. From this front-end POV it is difficult to tell if the right foot of the KU player makes contact with the left calf of the MSU player. Depth perception is not easy with this angle.
However, it seems that the Lead, positioned on the end line and looking vertically up the court, would have a great angle to see if contact occurred in such a manner.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I just watched the game this morning. I saw it the same as you. MSU #2 getting into a defensive stance extends his left leg which trips up the Kansas player.

JP

[walter]

Watching it last night live and then watching it this morning, I believe it is a foul. A view from the lead would be better to see it but it sure looks like to me that #2 from MSU stuck his leg out into the path of the KU player causing the trip. Coming right at the trail like it was, he may have had a hard time seeing it. He had a lot of action coming right at him.

[mick]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

while I agree with your premise that the lead should have never come out to make that call... I think an argument can be made (on phone with Brad I actually argued your POV) that there was a slight touch of the KU player by number 2 of MSU that caused his foot to kick back and trip his other foot. So to categorically say it was an "Unbelievable, bad call" may be a stretch. Just a thought.

Still I don't think I would reach that far to get it when it is that close. I think you have to let the trail live and die with that.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what I saw. MSU#2 stepped with his left leg, the one with the black wrap on his calf, and extended it out of his vertical space. The KU player running for the inbounds pass caught his toe on the back of that lower leg and this contact redirected his foot behind his other leg resulting in the tangling of his feet and the trip.

I believe that it was a foul.

I have not seen a link this morning, but last night I think I saw what you folks say.

Throughout this discussion, it has not been mentioned that #2 was guarding someone else and paying no attention to the player that was tripped.
Contact was made on the back or side? of #2's leg and the player that tripped must have some responsibility for running too close to, and from behind #2, who was playing good, legal defense when the contact was made.

I've got incidental contact forced by the tripped player from behind.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by mick

I have not seen a link this morning, but last night I think I saw what you folks say.

Throughout this discussion, it has not been mentioned that #2 was guarding someone else and paying no attention to the player that was tripped.
Contact was made on the back or side? of #2's leg and the player that tripped must have some responsibility for running too close to, and from behind #2, who was playing good, legal defense when the contact was made.

I've got incidental contact forced by the tripped player from behind.

Piggy-backing on some of Mick's phrasing here because last night, I THINK I saw a key that hasn't been mentioned. The live telecast showed a somewhat overhead shot and -- THERE WAS CLEARANCE between Nos. 2 and 15.

The guy who "got tripped" actually was trying to avoid his teammate's defender (No. 2) -- and he performed what I believe is called a "karaoke" move ala a linebacker drill (twisting the hips and putting one leg behind another while running sideways). Except he kicked his own foot.

The YouTube clip could never show this because it is a straight horizontal shot and you don't have the depth perception. Same reason the Trail couldn't make the call (if there was one to make, that is). Appears the Lead thought he had a better angle -- just might have been fooled, too. Need to see that other camera angle!

[Kelvin green]

Dont think this started at lead and was enough for lead to chase


I did a freeze frame graphic but could not get it to go here-I am still not good at forum magic...


http://saltlakeproambasketball.info/graphic.aspx you can see the separation between O and D and where the ball is...

I think by the time player gets to ball he is free of the defenders he is trying to get away from. Any contact is incidental....He was going between two defenders.

Common sense says the play is not going to originate very low (FT line area) which is periphery of lead... Based on where it started C has just as good a look through...

Tourney advancement should be based on crews...

[Old_School]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Dont think this started at lead and was enough for lead to chase

I think by the time player gets to ball he is free of the defenders he is trying to get away from. Any contact is incidental....He was going between two defenders.

Common sense says the play is not going to originate very low (FT line area) which is periphery of lead... Based on where it started C has just as good a look through...

Agree, agree and agree.

I guess that neither of us knows how to apply the basic rules of officiating.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by Old_School

Agree, agree and agree.

I guess that neither of us knows how to apply the basic rules of officiating.

Agree, agree, agree.

[rockyroad]

Seems to me, refguy, that you need to take a closer look and maybe slow the replay down. The Kansas player tried to squeeze through an area where there wasn't enough space - mainly because his own center, Aldridge, was trying to set a screen and didn't do a very good job of it. Amesman had a great description of what the Kansas kid tried to do. He tripped himself. #2 from MSU did nothing illegal and there should not have been a whistle on this play - especially from an official who could not possibly have a good look at what happened due to all the bodies in that small of an area.

And I needed Kansas to win because my bracket was toasted enough already!!