Stay out of my pond!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The contact actually took place a few feet outside the arc, pretty much even with the top of the arc.

I saw the tape. We cannot ever agree on whether there was contact, you really think we are going to agree on where the "non-contact" took place?

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I saw the tape. We cannot ever agree on whether there was contact, you really think we are going to agree on where the "non-contact" took place?

Peace

You say there was no contact, yet argue about where it took place.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The contact actually took place a few feet outside the arc, pretty much even with the top of the arc.

I guess 7'-3" above the arc.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You say there was no contact, yet argue about where it took place.

The only place it could have taken place was outside the 3 point lane. I just disagree that it took place at all. When the Kansas player feel, no one was around him. But he fell because of contact. Riiiiiiihhhhhhhttttttttt!!!!!

I know the word "context" is hard for you to actually understand.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official. The Lead's coverage area ends at the FT line. Now in my 10 plus years doing 3 Person that is a long ways to be looking for me or anyone. And at the college level the players are much bigger and it is harder to look clearly at those players.

That's called giving your partner, who has the primary coverage, the first crack at getting the call. The T didn't so the L came in with the call. That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Likewise, the T's covereage ends at that same FT line. Am I the only one to ever see a T come in with a rebounding foul?? Is that too a long way to be looking??? Bigger players I would agree, but I would say it would be easier to see those players because of that. I could see a size 17 foot a lot clearer at 20 feet away than I could a size 9 foot.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

FACT!! You obviously did not see the video if you think the "contact" took place at the 3 point line. Just goes the show another reason this was reaching.

Yeah, I have many times. Only took the first replay when the game was on for me to see what really happened, the MSU player lower leg contact with KU player's foot. I took a snapshot of the video when the contact occurred and drew a vertical line, ended up a foot or so outside the 3-point line. My guess is that we're not talking about the same part of the entire play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The play was a basketball play; it was at a critical moment in the game. Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

How do you KNOW that the C passed? He had quite a few players in his line of sight and could have been blocked from seeing it.

You yourself, have said that D1 officials sometimes "miss one". True enough. Would it not be ok if one of the other two officials on the court come in and pick up their partner in that case, if one of them happened to see the play and were 110% sure? That's what I'd want, no matter the game's venue. Maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, this is just 1 call out of 100+ whistles during the game. Why is one whistle from out of primary considered 'worrying too much'?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The supposed contact had to take place about 5 feet above the 3 point line. And the player did not fall until 15 feet or so away from the three point line. The call was not made until after the player fell while he was lying next to the division line. Now I do not know your knowledge of three person, but no where is outside the 3 point line in the area of the Lead official.

I know you know believe there was contact, but, for the sake of this discussion, assume there was.

Yes, it was above the FT line, but no where near as far as you think.

The defender who the foul was called on had his right foot on the three-point line to the side of the key about 4 feet above the FT line extended. He left foot, which is what tripped the Kansas player was a step or so toward the center of the court and toward the division line.

The call was made late. It's called seeing the entire play. If the player doesn't fall, no foul. Since he ultimately fell due to the contact, foul.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Two other officials were on the play and passed. What do I need to be ready to call? Seems like my partners have it covered and if you work enough 3 Person, you realize they can cover that. This was an NCAA Regional Semi-Final; I think my partners can handle the game at that point. If they cannot, then I am worrying too much.

Peace

Take a look at where the players were....

• 2 players on the opposite sideline, a little below the FT line.
• 2 players just coming into the key around the block form the center's side just as the trip happens.
• 5 players on the L/T side of the court, between the FT line extended and top of the key extended.
• 1 player (thrower) about 8 feet below the division line.
• 0 players below the FT line and on the leads side of the lane or in the lane (with 2 coming into the far side of the lane)

Now the officials...

The C was a little above the FT line extended...perhaps top of the key. The C was clearly covering the 2 on his sideline and maybe still covering the two moving into the key from his primary...one of them looked to still be straddling the lane line on the C's side. Except for the thrower, the fouler was the farthest player from the C. The foulee, 2nd farthest. The C, with 2-4 other players to cover in his primary and 7 players closer to him than the point of the foul, wouldn't usually look to the 8th and 9th closest players for a play 3-4 feet outside the lane line extended on the opposite side.

The trial, being at the division line, could have covered it but was pretty high to cover a play just above the FT line extended....and was in no better position than the lead.

The lead had no other players in his primary...the fouled player came form his primary....maybe had two coming into his primary from the opposite side 60+ feet from the throwin spot and not actively working to be part of the play. The next match-up for the lead was the point of the foul. He was actually as close to it as he trail (perhaps a little closer even), had an unobstructed view from that position with no other competitive match-ups in his area.

Should the lead have simply packed his whistle up and waited for players to enter his primary? No. I've been taught that when there are no players in your primary, you extend to the next closest competitive matchup...in this case, the point where the foul was called.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

That's called giving your partner, who has the primary coverage, the first crack at getting the call. The T didn't so the L came in with the call. That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Maybe that is what you call it. That is not what they call it around me. This is not a play that started in the Center's area and ended up in the Lead's position. I do not know your officiating background, but this call would not have been very well accepted in the places I work. And this game had many cameras watching.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Likewise, the T's covereage ends at that same FT line. Am I the only one to ever see a T come in with a rebounding foul?? Is that too a long way to be looking??? Bigger players I would agree, but I would say it would be easier to see those players because of that. I could see a size 17 foot a lot clearer at 20 feet away than I could a size 9 foot.

Actually the Trail's area is above the FT line. That is the case in all mechanics (CCA Men's and Women's and NF) that most of us work other than maybe FIBA.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Yeah, I have many times. Only took the first replay when the game was on for me to see what really happened, the MSU player lower leg contact with KU player's foot. I took a snapshot of the video when the contact occurred and drew a vertical line, ended up a foot or so outside the 3-point line. My guess is that we're not talking about the same part of the entire play.

We can argue about this all day. But you are admitting that the area is not in the Lead's coverage area.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

How do you KNOW that the C passed? He had quite a few players in his line of sight and could have been blocked from seeing it.

The same way you know that the Lead actually saw contact and did not guess.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

You yourself, have said that D1 officials sometimes "miss one". True enough. Would it not be ok if one of the other two officials on the court come in and pick up their partner in that case, if one of them happened to see the play and were 110% sure? That's what I'd want, no matter the game's venue. Maybe you wouldn't. Thing is, this is just 1 call out of 100+ whistles during the game. Why is one whistle from out of primary considered 'worrying too much'?

Because there is (a lot) debate if the call is right. And if I am going to get a call outside of my area, I cannot have this much debate over it and feel comfortable. And I bet the Trail might not agree that it was a good call. Maybe he does by reviewing tape, but his initial reaction was not necessarily positive. His body language sure was not “you saved me.” The Trail’s body language was much more like, “What tha…..”

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Not sure why the focus on the player "running up the defensive player's back"....KU #15 was 90% past MSU #2 and would have cleanly ran past him had MSU #2 not moved his left leg at the last second.

Also, I don't understand why the emphasis in the OP either. The L had, at most, 2 players in his primary during the throw-in to which there was no post activity happening. If I don't have any action going on in my primary, I'm looking secondary, which for the L is where this play occurred. I too, believe the L had the best angle for the play in question.

Can someone tell me the logic/rationale for the foul call on the MSU player that caused the clock to stop at 19.9 seconds? KU player goes from being a dribbler to a screener in a split second and looks like the contact occurred after the KU player hands ball to his teammate.

You are making way too much sense.
You too Camron.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We can argue about this all day. But you are admitting that the area is not in the Lead's coverage area.

Peace

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Feel free to look back, but none of my posts were arguing the fact that this was Lead's coverage. I'm just not getting all riled up because L came in and took that call. That was how the OP started, right?

I don't think you understood my point on T coming in for a rebounding foul. I was giving you a 'reverse' example to ponder and......well, never mind.

I did not say you suggested this was in the Lead's area. You could not make that claim anyway. Also a rebounding situation is very different.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will, by default, give D1 officials the respect and make the assumption that they are only making calls that they see. This is something, I think, we are all told/taught in our first years of officiating.

We are? First of all I see people ripping D1 officials all the time here. I even see people ripping the top names. I wonder why this play is given so much deference to this one call. And I can think of a certain official that calls all over the court and the very same people on the opposite side of this issue from me often point out how bad this particular official is. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I will not though, that because a D1 official doesn't blow his whistle, assume it is because he is passing on the play. That's taking an assumption to an unjustified level.

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm glad you brought up the reaction of the Trail official. I agree, his reaction wasn't positive and his body language was very negative. To me, that is inexcusable and is basically throwing his partner under the bus. Save it for the locker room.

I agree, but telling.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I am not assuming anything, the covering official did not call anything. That usually means you passed on the play.
Peace

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Nice try. Earlier you said, "Two other officials were on the play and passed." You obviously were talking about T and C. So if you weren't making an assumption for C, what would you call it?

You're assuming C saw it and passed. Possible. But it is also possible he just didn't see the play. So yes, Jeff, you are assuming (unless you know Jamie Luckie personally and he told you he saw it and passed).

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

[refguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

Dude, if you think it was a great call, stick with that. I do not think it was a good call. I have been doing 3 Person for over 10 years and have worked hundreds of games and I am a licensed official to teach 3 Person in my state. If you do not want to accept my point of view, don't accept my point of view. And I go to camps all the time where the very officials you see on TV tell us about what we should not or should not call.

I once had a game in camp where my partner called a travel in a critical movement completely in my area and I passed on the call. The evaluator spent most of the time talking about that one call after I told the evaluator when asked I got nothing. To me this is a very similar situation. And I have seen numerous guys get questions about calls for the very reason we are discussing here.

BTW, I do know someone that knows Jamie Luckie rather well and if I cared I would ask me to contact him. But what is the point and if he told me something, I certainly would not pass it here. I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

I know officials who have worked 20 years and aren't any better now than when they started. The learning curve is not equal for everyone. And I know instructors that are great at teaching but not so much at applying those principles themselves.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refguy

I know officials who have worked 20 years and aren't any better now than when they started. The learning curve is not equal for everyone. And I know instructors that are great at teaching but not so much at applying those principles themselves.

Yep, I have a lot to accomplish.



Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nice Try?

I just know that I would be looking at this play as the Center because I the Center had no competitive match-ups in their area. I do not know what you have been taught, but a foul in a half-court set by the Lead above or near the 3 point line better have more than debate over the call. That is how I roll.

Peace

Tell me then what the lead should have been covering if not what he called....remembering that there were 0 players in his area at the time of the foul (with one soft matchup just entering from C's area) with the cut having just come from his area while the C had 1 pair of players fully in his area, 1 pair leaving, and another two defenders and one offensive player closer to him than the point of the foul.

It certainly wasn't a typical half-court set with the positioning of the players as they were...it was a mid-court thrown-in....resembling transistion play where the leads area extends a little higher until the players drop down into the lane and the T and C settle into a typical FC position.