Fishing in someone else's pond

Steve_pa · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:35pm

I was lead and partner was just about to cross midcourt still counting for back court. Point ugly crossover to left hand double dribble. Partner behind player still couldn't see it. I called it. Much more experienced official said I went fishing. I took that to mean ignore it if is out of your primary. Just kind of bugged me that some officials take offense if you call in their area. Everyone says this is very political and you'd hate to piss off the wrong official by doing this. So to be polically correct do you ignore calls outside your primary. Because I probably wouldn't do it again even if everyone in the gym saw it.
"Hey it wasn't my call coach" This really bugged Me.
Let me say the comment came from official who was watching the game. My partner was fine with the call.

TriggerMN · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:48pm

It's a gray area. If you can go and get it without making your partner look like a fool, have a patient whistle, let him have a crack, and then take it. If you've got to use a global satellite tracker to phone in the call, let it go. There's a point (which I cannot give by steps or feet, it's just a feel) at which I won't extend my boundaries on calls like this.

On the other hand, if you are looking and concentrating on your own area, you'll never see this...

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:49pm

You really are combining too many things together and getting offended by them.

First of all, the call that you made was right in front of your partner. Let him live or die with that call. You should not even be looking there according to your story. What are you missing by looking at this play?

Secondly, what does this have to do with being offended by calling outside your area? It does not seem that anyone got offended by your call. An experienced official just suggested that you went fishing. It sounds like he was telling the truth by your own post here. Also understand what you feel is a carry, your partner might not feel is a carry. Let your partner make that call.

Finally you are addressing an issue that appears to be your own. No one said that you had to say, "That is not my area." But if a coach asks you a question about a call that your partner makes, it is perfectly acceptable to say, "he had a better look at it than I did." I tell coaches all the time, "that is his primary, he saw the whole thing." But that does not seem to be the issue here. Hell, you can say nothing.

Peace

Steve_pa · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 06:06pm

I know I shouldn't have been looking but I guess my question is if you look up and see it do you call it or ignore it because its outside your primary and its the political thing to do?

rainmaker · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve_pa
I know I shouldn't have been looking but I guess my question is if you look up and see it do you call it or ignore it because its outside your primary and its the political thing to do?

You pre-game this. "I don't care if it's right in front of my nose, the most important thing is to get the call right." Then see what partner says. Some say, "me too." Others, "I'm calling my primary, you leave it alone." You do whichever he says.

When I think partner didn't see it, and everyone else in the gym did, I'll take it, unless this person has given me a specific hands-off message. If you're a long way away, close like crazy, and delay the whistle a little. If a coach says anything, the best sentence is, "He was focusing on the division line" or "He was watching the defender for contact," or some such. If an eval or observer makes a comment, you say, We pre-gamed that and he was okay with it.

mick · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 07:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve_pa
I know I shouldn't have been looking but I guess my question is if you look up and see it do you call it or ignore it because its outside your primary and its the political thing to do?

Three-man; Small College men. I'm Lead on the baseline.

Blue dribbling the ball just crossed Division Line in the center of the circle.
Center was slower than usual, Trail was in good position 2 steps behind the dribbler and near the sideline.
From behind, White, surprisingly, reached over dribbler's shoulder (really a dumb foul with no chance) at the ball but got all shoulder. Dribbler stuttered on the contact, but continued toward me. About the time that happened, all of "my players" moved to either side, and there I was looking directly at the dang play.

Though I didn't consciously think about it, I knew my Trail was straight-lined and that my Center wasn't really looking.
Anyway, when "the Red Sea parted" there was the foul so clear, and so in front of me (48' away !), and my whistle went off before I could even think.

Well, neither partner complained to me, though I am sure they were wondering, "What the Hey!". As soon as we got to the lockers, I aplologized frequently for going after that foul.

I wished I hadn't, but "the Red Sea parted" and there was the Promised Land.

It happens.
mick

BlackFox40 · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 09:54pm

Know your primary, secondary and the gray area like the palm of your hand and try to avoid long distance calls.
It's a good habit to get into especially if you don't know your partner's game. The experienced official picked out your fishing call because it was so obvious. Trust his advice as well as your partner on the court and always give them the benefit of the doubt. If your partner kicked the call then let him die with the call. And about your statement of some officials take offense when outside calls are made in there primary, well they should especially if other officials are reaching right in front of their partners play. Regardless if your partner is fine with the call/s.

There should be no poilitics between you and your partner
only trust.

nine01c · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 10:14pm

I worked with a veteran official (25+ yrs) this season. In our pre-game he stated: "I have no ego on the court. If you see something I miss, by all means, call it." Of course, that did not mean for me to be reffing his primary the whole game. In general, I agree with his approach, as long as both refs use common sense. I have been "jammed up, and too close to the action" at times, where my partner called a travel or double dribble, or whose OOB (and bailed me out, more or less). This can happen on a quick transition when the majority of players shift very close to you becoming the new trail (for example).

On the other hand, I do not appreciate my partner blowing from the 3 point arc when I have an OOB call under the hoop on the endline. If I need help (which is highly unlikely in this situation) I will make eye contact. Otherwise, there should be one whistle and point only (mine). If our positions were switched, I would keep quiet unless asked (even if I thought I saw something defferent).

As I stated above, common sense and team work...

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve_pa
I know I shouldn't have been looking but I guess my question is if you look up and see it do you call it or ignore it because its outside your primary and its the political thing to do?

I believe you have to ignore it. If you're looking all over the court, you're going to see things your partner missed, or that you think he missed. Even if he has no problem with it, I'd still stay away.

And, I agree with Rut. There's the possibility of too many other things going on when you're L, looking at the ball at the division line.

I think the most important thing is this. If you weren't ball hawking, you never would have seen it. Stay in your area and watch off ball.

theshortbaldref · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 10:44pm

Pregame, I ask my partner to help in watching for traveling in the blocks, because I'm usually up high with my eyes watching ball, hands, body contact, and if the guy doesn't have an ego to bruise, he'll say "Do the same for me". Best way to ref a game... Check your ego at the gymnasium door, I'm there to make sure the game is played by the rules, not to make a prettyboy official feel good about himself.
I agree with the concensus on ballhawkers; watch offball as much as possible, but if you see it, and it isn't called, do the right thing.

[Edited by theshortbaldref on Mar 10th, 2003 at 09:49 PM]

NICK · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 04:37am

Tis a shame that you made that call. Makes you and your partner look bad. Two wrongs do not make a right. You were ball-watching and had no confidence in your partner.

Rich · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 08:52am

You know, I sense a lot of sanctimonious attitudes here.

Sometimes, just sometimes, something happens that is not expected.

I was working a girls' varsity game earlier this season. I was trail with an unattended ball handler coming up the floor.

I looked into the frontcourt to assess whether I'd need to officiate a trap when my partner blew his whistle, coming out hard and calling a double dribble. Well, who knew that a varsity player couldn't bring the ball up the court? The next dead ball I thanked my partner for covering my butt. Sounds like some people here would have bruised egos and be annoyed that he "poached" a call from me. Well, boo hoo.

My favorite part of the game is off-ball officiating, but that doesn't mean that we don't see what happens out of our primary, especially if the angle is right.

I've been calling basketball for 15 years and I've been fortunate enough to work some great high school games with some great officials. The best officials work together, leave their egos at the door, know their responsibilities, AND know when it's appropriate to help out.

I don't know whether it was appropriate in your situation. If it's a borderline violation, then you should let it go. But if it is a violation that is obvious to the world and you're convinced your partner didn't see it, then by all means call it. If your partner can't handle it and would rather work as two solo officials than as a team, then that's his problem.

Rich

tharbert · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:00am

I think there is a difference between having the angle on a play in your secondary area and calling a violation right in from of your partner from 40'. Trust your partner. If he needs help, he'll ask.

Also, I agree it sounds like you were ball watching. It's a hard habit to break and you will find yourself in more situations like this if you don't concentrate more on your primary responsibilities.

And rainmaker nailed it - pre-game!!!!!

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:13am

Some of "what to call outside your primary" depends on how bad the foul / violation is.

The original poster described the play as "ugly crossover" -- that could mean anything from "awkward" (no call), to "defense did something marginally illegal to cause a violation" (call the defense or pass on both), to "physically held the ball in both hands for a couple of seconds before resuming the dribble" (call it).

The evaluator wasn't (or shouldn't have been) saying "never call a violation not in your area", bur rather "be 110% sure that (a) your partner missed it and (b) it needs to be called."

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:53am

It does *not*, at face value, sound like ball-watching. For goodness sakes, some of you guys act like we officiate with megaphones over our heads -- even when the ball is in the trails primary, there are many times when the ball and the ballhandler are right where the lead official is looking.

Bob nailed it, better than I could. If it is something that needs to be called, call it. But I get the impression that there are some here that would pass on a violation like the one described by Bob *just because* it isn't in their primary.

How does that improve the game or improve the officiating TEAM on the floor?

Rich