Difference in ruling on same casebook play?

[ronny mulkey]

Please look at the ruling on 2.10.1.D and the ruling on 2.10.1.G.d. In both plays B1 has the ball out of bounds for a throwin after a successful unmerited free throw.

The POI ruling in 2.10.1.D goes to arrow since no goal has been scored. B1 had the ball for a throwin.

The ruling in 2.10.1.G.d the POI goes to B since B1 had the ball for a throwin.

Am I misreading this or is this not the same play - successful unmerited free throw(s) with B1 standing out of bounds for the throwin? One time they go to arrow and one time they go to B1 because he was standing outofbounds?

[referee99]

in the 2nd, the game has continued from the spot of the foul. Even though we are cancelling the points scored, the game continued. Team B took the ball out of the basket after the 2nd made throw, stepped out of bounds and was looking to make a throw-in. This was the POI -- when the officials were notified of the error.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Please look at the ruling on 2.10.1.D and the ruling on 2.10.1.G.d. In both plays B1 has the ball out of bounds for a throwin after a successful unmerited free throw.

The POI ruling in 2.10.1.D goes to arrow since no goal has been scored. B1 had the ball for a throwin.

The ruling in 2.10.1.G.d the POI goes to B since B1 had the ball for a throwin.

Am I misreading this or is this not the same play - successful unmerited free throw(s) with B1 standing out of bounds for the throwin? One time they go to arrow and one time they go to B1 because he was standing outofbounds?

Ronny:

They are NOT the same play.

Play 2.10.1.D: A1 was to be awarded a one plus one bonus free throw. A1 was erroneously awarded two free throw of which the first one was unsuccessful and the second one was successful. The Correctable Error (CE) was the awarding of a second free throw to A1. Therefore, the POI of interruption is when A1's free throw is missed; at this point there is not Team Control (TC) and therefore the ball is put back into play using the AP Arrow.

Play 2.10.1.G(d): A1 was erroneously awarded free throws instead of Team A being awarded a throw-in for B1's foul. The CE was discovered within the appropriate time frame. Since the correction was the canceling of A1's succesful free throws and Team B's throw-in for the erroneously awarded free throws, play resumes at the POI which is the awarding of a throw-in to Team A, which is the correct penalty for B1's foul.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ronny:


Play 2.10.1.G(d): A1 was erroneously awarded free throws instead of Team A being awarded a throw-in for B1's foul. The CE was discovered within the appropriate time frame. Since the correction was the canceling of A1's succesful free throws and Team B's throw-in for the erroneously awarded free throws, play resumes at the POI which is the awarding of a throw-in to Team A, which is the correct penalty for B1's foul.

MTD, Sr.

This is not the ruling on this play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not the ruling on this play.

OPPS!!

I misread the RULING, but having read the RULING more closely, I am not sure that Team B should be awarded the throw-in. I am inclined to say that the POI is the erroneously awarding free throws to A1.

MTD, Sr.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ronny:

They are NOT the same play.

Play 2.10.1.D: A1 was to be awarded a one plus one bonus free throw. A1 was erroneously awarded two free throw of which the first one was unsuccessful and the second one was successful. The Correctable Error (CE) was the awarding of a second free throw to A1. Therefore, the POI of interruption is when A1's free throw is missed; at this point there is not Team Control (TC) and therefore the ball is put back into play using the AP Arrow.

Play 2.10.1.G(d): A1 was erroneously awarded free throws instead of Team A being awarded a throw-in for B1's foul. The CE was discovered within the appropriate time frame. Since the correction was the canceling of A1's succesful free throws and Team B's throw-in for the erroneously awarded free throws, play resumes at the POI which is the awarding of a throw-in to Team A, which is the correct penalty for B1's foul.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,

In the 2nd case play (play d) they gave the ball back to Team B - not Team A - because B1 had the ball out of bounds.

Besides doesn't POI have more to do with WHERE was the interruption when the error was discovered, instead of WHEN did the error occur? What if B1 had thrown the ball in and Team B froze the ball for 4 minutes and then the error was discovered during a time out. The POI would be at the place the ball was near at the time of the T.O.

In the case plays, both times B1 was standing out of bounds with the ball for a thowin when the error was discovered. And, both times was after an umerited successful f.throw.

[just another ref]

This play is the opposite of the play where A is not awarded free throws and is awarded a throw-in. When discovered, if change of possession has occurred, and A has the ball again, now A gets both the free throws and the ball. In this case, the error is discovered while B has the ball, so B keeps the ball and A gets..........nothing.
Seems harsh when described this way, but if several possession had taken place since the error it seems less severe. For better or for worse, this is where the committee chose to draw the lines in this rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

MTD,

In the 2nd case play (play d) they gave the ball back to Team B - not Team A - because B1 had the ball out of bounds.

Besides doesn't POI have more to do with WHERE was the interruption when the error was discovered, instead of WHEN did the error occur? What if B1 had thrown the ball in and Team B froze the ball for 4 minutes and then the error was discovered during a time out. The POI would be at the place the ball was near at the time of the T.O.

In the case plays, both times B1 was standing out of bounds with the ball for a thowin when the error was discovered. And, both times was after an umerited successful f.throw.

Ronny:

Read my post immediately before your latest post.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Please look at the ruling on 2.10.1.D and the ruling on 2.10.1.G.d. In both plays B1 has the ball out of bounds for a throwin after a successful unmerited free throw.

I don't have the books handy, but I'm 93.5% certain that:

1) D is a new case

2) It was discussed here when it was first issued (said so you can search to get more information)

3) Most of us here disagree with the ruling (it's as if the rule was changed from "POI" to "do-over.")

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have the books handy, but I'm 93.5% certain that:

1) D is a new case

2) It was discussed here when it was first issued (said so you can search to get more information)

3) Most of us here disagree with the ruling (it's as if the rule was changed from "POI" to "do-over.")

Bob and MTD,

So, you kinda agree that the plays should be treated the same? Which case has the correct ruling (in y'alls' opinion?)

Mulk

[HoopsRefJunior]

Do over? Mulk would never allow a do-over in one of his games!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob and MTD,

So, you kinda agree that the plays should be treated the same? Which case has the correct ruling (in y'alls' opinion?)

Mulk

Under the current rules, I think G is the correct ruling. (said without looking at my books, and just based on the recollection of our previous discussions)

[Scrapper1]

Here is the thread where we talked about this very thing:

Unmerited free throw

As I said in that thread, I think Mary Struckoff considers the POI to actually the Point of the Error, which is a mistake IMHO.

I would not be at all surprised if this ruling were "fixed" this summer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here is the thread where we talked about this very thing:

Unmerited free throw

As I said in that thread, I think Mary Struckoff considers the POI to actually the Point of the Error, which is a mistake IMHO.

I would not be at all surprised if this ruling were "fixed" this summer.

Can they fix the stupid backcourt ruling while they're at it?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here is the thread where we talked about this very thing:

Unmerited free throw

As I said in that thread, I think Mary Struckoff considers the POI to actually the Point of the Error, which is a mistake IMHO.

I would not be at all surprised if this ruling were "fixed" this summer.

Do you know what is scarey? I was thinking like Mary Struckhoff. LOL

I had to go back and re-read the original thread. I have to agree with you.

MTD, Sr.