Importance of games

[just another ref]

Am I the only one that thinks it is out of line for a response in this forum to include anything about the relative importance of the game in question?

Here is the rule, but does it really matter? After all, it was just a kids game.

Your question and your rec league are silly. Don't waste our time here.

Etc.

Each official must decide which levels he is willing to work. That's fine. But if you think it is beneath you to call a certain level, I suggest you can either keep that part to yourself or stay out of the thread altogether.

The most important game for any official should be the one he is involved in at the moment.

Just my opinion.

[JRutledge]

Whether you are the only one or you are not the only one is irrelevant. People have a right to have an opinion about what should or should not be important. This includes the games or the level we are talking about. If that bothers you, report such comments to the moderator and if they find it out of line they will deal with the issue. But to suggest that people cannot share their opinions is not only unrealistic but it is not going to happen. In my opinion people on the internet take a lot of things that are trivial too seriously. We are mostly talking about something that many people couldn't care less about. And if everyone cared enough they would not hide behind little funny names to express their opinions.

This is kind of like the woman that had the 8 children recently. When you put yourself out their or your opinions, people have the right to respond to those opinions. If that is something a person cannot handle, they need not every say anything on this or any forum.

Welcome to the real world.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Am I the only one that thinks it is out of line for a response in this forum to include anything about the relative importance of the game in question?

Here is the rule, but does it really matter? After all, it was just a kids game.

Your question and your rec league are silly. Don't waste our time here.

Etc.

Each official must decide which levels he is willing to work. That's fine. But if you think it is beneath you to call a certain level, I suggest you can either keep that part to yourself or stay out of the thread altogether.

The most important game for any official should be the one he is involved in at the moment.

Just my opinion.

Since you are obviously referring to the post that I made in another thread, please allow me to elaborate.

I was not in any way attempting to belittle the kids or the officials involved in that contest or at that level. To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game. I don't think that score should even be kept for kids playing at that age.
Unfortunately, these PARENTS seem to be more concerned with who won/lost than whether the kids got some exercise and had fun. They need to keep things in perspective. In my opinion, these people are missing the point of youth sports.

If you inferred anything other than that from what I wrote, then you misconstrued my words.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I was not in any way attempting to belittle the kids or the officials involved in that contest or at that level. To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game. I don't think that score should even be kept for kids playing at that age.
Unfortunately, these PARENTS seem to be more concerned with who won/lost than whether the kids got some exercise and had fun. They need to keep things in perspective. In my opinion, these people are missing the point of youth sports.

If you inferred anything other than that from what I wrote, then you misconstrued my words.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. The problem, as I see it, is this line:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. THE KIDS ARE 9 YEARS OLD!!!!! It's not a big deal. It's just a game that is supposed to be played by the kids for fun.

At what age does it become a big deal? 19 year old kids are still kids and the game should be fun for them, too. The guy asked a question. You, as usual, quoted chapter and verse on the rule and gave him just what he was looking for. If he didn't think the issue was important, (a big deal) he probably would not have bothered to post the question. This guy was even a rare case. His team had won, but he was still interested in whether everything was done the right way, or as much so as possible. I think when somebody like that comes here for information, we should do as much as possible to educate and encourage that person, and refrain from anything which might be perceived as negative.

Officials are often perceived as aloof, unreachable, or arrogant. I personally try to avoid that image. Others may see it as a necessary part of some greater aura that they feel they need to project.

[grunewar]

I was always taught it doesn't matter the age of the kids, you always officiate your best, as this may be the most important thing in their life at the time - right or wrong.

So, if you don't want to ref the younger kids - don't. My choice is not. But I try not to knock those who do. That being said, I realize over the web that you are not going to be able to "prevent others" from saying what is on their minds. So, if you don't like it keep it to yourself - or accept what comes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. (And the moderators sensor us every now and again - which is their prerogative).

Personally, I try to avoid the really young kids. Sometimes their games give me a headache and their is really little I can learn or practice - except maybe to help teach another young official.

So, what happens? Last week I was asked to do a G9/11 Rec game due to a shortage of refs. UGH! Usually, my worst nightmare. Well, joke was on me. Easy game to call. No controversies. No parents/coaches yelling. Hardly any running on the small court and I got to help a young official learn. All in all enjoyable and easy on the knees! I may try to pick up some more of these! Ok, probably not.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game.

Just a comment about this particular point. I have a theory about why the parents of 4th graders are typically worse than the parents of 7th graders, who are in turn typically worse than the parents of varsity players.

Apart from just getting old and tired like me, the parents of teenage players have been watching kids play for years. For the most part, they have learned the game better, they have learned what to expect from amateur referees, and they have learned how little good they can achieve by hurling abuse at anyone (officials, opponents, coaches, etc.).

But I think maybe the most important thing they've learned is: their kids are going to lose sometimes. I think that this fact is hard for parents of younger kids to accept and motivates the obnoxious behavior that officials at that level must endure.

So I don't think it's just the "relative importance" or whatever that parents need to learn. They are so invested in the outcome because they haven't discovered that learning to lose with grace is one of the great lessons sports can teach.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Just a comment about this particular point. I have a theory about why the parents of 4th graders are typically worse than the parents of 7th graders, who are in turn typically worse than the parents of varsity players.

Apart from just getting old and tired like me, the parents of teenage players have been watching kids play for years. For the most part, they have learned the game better, they have learned what to expect from amateur referees, and they have learned how little good they can achieve by hurling abuse at anyone (officials, opponents, coaches, etc.).

But I think maybe the most important thing they've learned is: their kids are going to lose sometimes. I think that this fact is hard for parents of younger kids to accept and motivates the obnoxious behavior that officials at that level must endure.

So I don't think it's just the "relative importance" or whatever that parents need to learn. They are so invested in the outcome because they haven't discovered that learning to lose with grace is one of the great lessons sports can teach.

An excellent point, very eloquently stated.

I'll note that I have made a similar observation before concerning youth games about parents learning to understand that little Johnny or Suzie will fall down or even get knocked down at some point in the contest and the official may or may not deem the action to be an offense, but either way it isn't the end of the world, nor likely that the kid will suffer permanent damage or the loss of a D1 scholarship.

[cardinalfan]

I don't work anything but higher level high school games and small college (baseball), but I have nothing but respect for anyone who will give their time and energy to officiate elementary leagues, rec leagues, or even adult independent leagues. For pay/abuse ratio, these are usually the worst.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges, but it doesn't matter what level you work, you should always try to improve and give a quality effort. I think this forum is for all officials who want to improve, vent, or just waste time!

[Bad Zebra]

Each year, I work an 11U tournament at the end of their season. I do this to try to give back to the leagues and parents that gave me my start in officiating. It is often ugly and frustrating, but I'm compelled to do it out of loyalty.

That being said, I don't think scenarios and situations that occur at this level are the best cases for discussion on this forum. My perception is that the officials (and coaches and lurkers) that post and comment here are generally beyond that level of expertise. I try to keep the audience in mind when I comment or ask questions.

[JPaco54]

I enjoy the game and working with kids to help them learn the game and to enjoy the game for what it is. At my age I doubt I will ever ref at the HS level. What frustrates me the most at the rec level are refs that have an attitude and don't know the rules and look like slobs. Maybe I take this too seriously. Reffing basketball games has been a tremendous outlet for me to reduce stress and think about the joy and fun in life. After losing my dad, my job, my home(house fire) and diagnosed with Lyme disease, two cars vandalized, one car totaled and my best friend (dog) died, in a span of 5 months, this game has given me an outlet. My dad was an amateur umpire (Little League in New England). He never umped a game without polishing his shoes, putting a tuck in his shirt and presenting a professional appearance. That is the way I approach every game. In two years of reffing, I still study the rules and keep up with the changes. I read everything I can and then role play situations to better prepare myself. I have received some high marks from other senior refs but I still strive to improve each and every game. Some of my brother refs, that are senior to me, still dont know all the rules and don't care. They call a lousy game, don't hustle, no mechanics and no communication. So, when coaches and fans, parents etc, start to get on their case and complain, I can not blame them. They bring it upon themselves and then they get an attitude. I am not immune to making mistakes because I have had my share of missed calls and forgetting a rule(s) as well. Some of these refs should hang it up because they do not do anything for the game nor for the spirit of the game and for good competition and sportsmanship. You know some of them and I am not saying all rec refs are like this but there are quite a few. I always look forward to learning something from a partner and sharing experiences, just like this forum. This is where one can grow and improve and get a great perspective on the game, both the good and the ugly. I have mentioned to my assignor that I prefer not to partner with some, but he likes to give me the troubled ones in hopes that I can help them improve. So when I hear some stories about fans and coaches getting on refs, I reflect back on my dad...and think about myself and how I am representing the game... "Am I prepared (know the rules)...am I mentally alert...did I check my attitude at the door...Am I hear to enjoy the game...is my shirt tucked, pants pressed, shoes shined, hair combed and I always rember to introduce myself to my partner, smile and say "Look forward to working with you, now let's play some basketball."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

I enjoy the game and working with kids to help them learn the game and to enjoy the game for what it is. At my age I doubt I will ever ref at the HS level. What frustrates me the most at the rec level are refs that have an attitude and don't know the rules and look like slobs. Maybe I take this too seriously. Reffing basketball games has been a tremendous outlet for me to reduce stress and think about the joy and fun in life. After losing my dad, my job, my home(house fire) and diagnosed with Lyme disease, two cars vandalized, one car totaled and my best friend (dog) died, in a span of 5 months, this game has given me an outlet. My dad was an amateur umpire (Little League in New England). He never umped a game without polishing his shoes, putting a tuck in his shirt and presenting a professional appearance. That is the way I approach every game. In two years of reffing, I still study the rules and keep up with the changes. I read everything I can and then role play situations to better prepare myself. I have received some high marks from other senior refs but I still strive to improve each and every game. Some of my brother refs, that are senior to me, still dont know all the rules and don't care. They call a lousy game, don't hustle, no mechanics and no communication. So, when coaches and fans, parents etc, start to get on their case and complain, I can not blame them. They bring it upon themselves and then they get an attitude. I am not immune to making mistakes because I have had my share of missed calls and forgetting a rule(s) as well. Some of these refs should hang it up because they do not do anything for the game nor for the spirit of the game and for good competition and sportsmanship. You know some of them and I am not saying all rec refs are like this but there are quite a few. I always look forward to learning something from a partner and sharing experiences, just like this forum. This is where one can grow and improve and get a great perspective on the game, both the good and the ugly. I have mentioned to my assignor that I prefer not to partner with some, but he likes to give me the troubled ones in hopes that I can help them improve. So when I hear some stories about fans and coaches getting on refs, I reflect back on my dad...and think about myself and how I am representing the game... "Am I prepared (know the rules)...am I mentally alert...did I check my attitude at the door...Am I hear to enjoy the game...is my shirt tucked, pants pressed, shoes shined, hair combed and I always rember to introduce myself to my partner, smile and say "Look forward to working with you, now let's play some basketball."

Thank you, sir, for your post. You are the poster child for what I was trying to say. The attitude you have says that every game you call is important, no matter what anybody else may say. If there was a question posted on this board about a call made in one of your games, and this question was met with "The officials were probably clueless," or "What's the difference, it's just a rec league," this generalization would be doing a disservice to you, which is what I would like to avoid.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Thank you, sir, for your post. You are the poster child for what I was trying to say. The attitude you have says that every game you call is important, no matter what anybody else may say. If there was a question posted on this board about a call made in one of your games, and this question was met with "The officials were probably clueless," or "What's the difference, it's just a rec league," this generalization would be doing a disservice to you, which is what I would like to avoid.

Every game does not share the same importance to everyone, nor should it. This is an activity, not a moral display of standards. If the games did have the same level of importance, then TV would cover them and fans outside of parents would be at every game. What you are saying sounds great, but not very realistic. I tend to want to deal with realism than fantasy.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Every game does not share the same importance to everyone, nor should it. This is an activity, not a moral display of standards. If the games did have the same level of importance, then TV would cover them and fans outside of parents would be at every game. What you are saying sounds great, but not very realistic. I tend to want to deal with realism than fantasy.

Peace

Nobody said the same level of importance. There is a huge difference between equal importance and "your game/league is silly." A moral display of standards. I have no idea what you mean, but that is not unusual.

[just another ref]

A side note about matters of relative importance and what should be on tv:
A topic brought up for discussion on ESPN First Take was whether or not Lebron James should change his number.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody said the same level of importance. There is a huge difference between equal importance and "your game/league is silly." A moral display of standards. I have no idea what you mean, but that is not unusual.

Let me put it this way. You said in an earlier conversation that you did not mind showing up to a game in your uniform. I think that kind of display would be unprofessional and where I live would be considered unprofessional by most.

Just those two things illustrate a completely different approach to officiating and how you want to be perceived as compared to how I want to be perceived. If you and I can have a completely different approach to how we look before a game, why do we have to have the same approach to how we perceive a game that we work?

Peace