Importance of games

[just another ref]

Am I the only one that thinks it is out of line for a response in this forum to include anything about the relative importance of the game in question?

Here is the rule, but does it really matter? After all, it was just a kids game.

Your question and your rec league are silly. Don't waste our time here.

Etc.

Each official must decide which levels he is willing to work. That's fine. But if you think it is beneath you to call a certain level, I suggest you can either keep that part to yourself or stay out of the thread altogether.

The most important game for any official should be the one he is involved in at the moment.

Just my opinion.

[JRutledge]

Whether you are the only one or you are not the only one is irrelevant. People have a right to have an opinion about what should or should not be important. This includes the games or the level we are talking about. If that bothers you, report such comments to the moderator and if they find it out of line they will deal with the issue. But to suggest that people cannot share their opinions is not only unrealistic but it is not going to happen. In my opinion people on the internet take a lot of things that are trivial too seriously. We are mostly talking about something that many people couldn't care less about. And if everyone cared enough they would not hide behind little funny names to express their opinions.

This is kind of like the woman that had the 8 children recently. When you put yourself out their or your opinions, people have the right to respond to those opinions. If that is something a person cannot handle, they need not every say anything on this or any forum.

Welcome to the real world.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Am I the only one that thinks it is out of line for a response in this forum to include anything about the relative importance of the game in question?

Here is the rule, but does it really matter? After all, it was just a kids game.

Your question and your rec league are silly. Don't waste our time here.

Etc.

Each official must decide which levels he is willing to work. That's fine. But if you think it is beneath you to call a certain level, I suggest you can either keep that part to yourself or stay out of the thread altogether.

The most important game for any official should be the one he is involved in at the moment.

Just my opinion.

Since you are obviously referring to the post that I made in another thread, please allow me to elaborate.

I was not in any way attempting to belittle the kids or the officials involved in that contest or at that level. To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game. I don't think that score should even be kept for kids playing at that age.
Unfortunately, these PARENTS seem to be more concerned with who won/lost than whether the kids got some exercise and had fun. They need to keep things in perspective. In my opinion, these people are missing the point of youth sports.

If you inferred anything other than that from what I wrote, then you misconstrued my words.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I was not in any way attempting to belittle the kids or the officials involved in that contest or at that level. To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game. I don't think that score should even be kept for kids playing at that age.
Unfortunately, these PARENTS seem to be more concerned with who won/lost than whether the kids got some exercise and had fun. They need to keep things in perspective. In my opinion, these people are missing the point of youth sports.

If you inferred anything other than that from what I wrote, then you misconstrued my words.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. The problem, as I see it, is this line:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. THE KIDS ARE 9 YEARS OLD!!!!! It's not a big deal. It's just a game that is supposed to be played by the kids for fun.

At what age does it become a big deal? 19 year old kids are still kids and the game should be fun for them, too. The guy asked a question. You, as usual, quoted chapter and verse on the rule and gave him just what he was looking for. If he didn't think the issue was important, (a big deal) he probably would not have bothered to post the question. This guy was even a rare case. His team had won, but he was still interested in whether everything was done the right way, or as much so as possible. I think when somebody like that comes here for information, we should do as much as possible to educate and encourage that person, and refrain from anything which might be perceived as negative.

Officials are often perceived as aloof, unreachable, or arrogant. I personally try to avoid that image. Others may see it as a necessary part of some greater aura that they feel they need to project.

[grunewar]

I was always taught it doesn't matter the age of the kids, you always officiate your best, as this may be the most important thing in their life at the time - right or wrong.

So, if you don't want to ref the younger kids - don't. My choice is not. But I try not to knock those who do. That being said, I realize over the web that you are not going to be able to "prevent others" from saying what is on their minds. So, if you don't like it keep it to yourself - or accept what comes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. (And the moderators sensor us every now and again - which is their prerogative).

Personally, I try to avoid the really young kids. Sometimes their games give me a headache and their is really little I can learn or practice - except maybe to help teach another young official.

So, what happens? Last week I was asked to do a G9/11 Rec game due to a shortage of refs. UGH! Usually, my worst nightmare. Well, joke was on me. Easy game to call. No controversies. No parents/coaches yelling. Hardly any running on the small court and I got to help a young official learn. All in all enjoyable and easy on the knees! I may try to pick up some more of these! Ok, probably not.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

To the contrary, I was trying to emphasize a point to some seemingly out-of-control PARENTS that they are placing WAY too much importance on the outcome of a kids game.

Just a comment about this particular point. I have a theory about why the parents of 4th graders are typically worse than the parents of 7th graders, who are in turn typically worse than the parents of varsity players.

Apart from just getting old and tired like me, the parents of teenage players have been watching kids play for years. For the most part, they have learned the game better, they have learned what to expect from amateur referees, and they have learned how little good they can achieve by hurling abuse at anyone (officials, opponents, coaches, etc.).

But I think maybe the most important thing they've learned is: their kids are going to lose sometimes. I think that this fact is hard for parents of younger kids to accept and motivates the obnoxious behavior that officials at that level must endure.

So I don't think it's just the "relative importance" or whatever that parents need to learn. They are so invested in the outcome because they haven't discovered that learning to lose with grace is one of the great lessons sports can teach.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Just a comment about this particular point. I have a theory about why the parents of 4th graders are typically worse than the parents of 7th graders, who are in turn typically worse than the parents of varsity players.

Apart from just getting old and tired like me, the parents of teenage players have been watching kids play for years. For the most part, they have learned the game better, they have learned what to expect from amateur referees, and they have learned how little good they can achieve by hurling abuse at anyone (officials, opponents, coaches, etc.).

But I think maybe the most important thing they've learned is: their kids are going to lose sometimes. I think that this fact is hard for parents of younger kids to accept and motivates the obnoxious behavior that officials at that level must endure.

So I don't think it's just the "relative importance" or whatever that parents need to learn. They are so invested in the outcome because they haven't discovered that learning to lose with grace is one of the great lessons sports can teach.

An excellent point, very eloquently stated.

I'll note that I have made a similar observation before concerning youth games about parents learning to understand that little Johnny or Suzie will fall down or even get knocked down at some point in the contest and the official may or may not deem the action to be an offense, but either way it isn't the end of the world, nor likely that the kid will suffer permanent damage or the loss of a D1 scholarship.

[cardinalfan]

I don't work anything but higher level high school games and small college (baseball), but I have nothing but respect for anyone who will give their time and energy to officiate elementary leagues, rec leagues, or even adult independent leagues. For pay/abuse ratio, these are usually the worst.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges, but it doesn't matter what level you work, you should always try to improve and give a quality effort. I think this forum is for all officials who want to improve, vent, or just waste time!

[Bad Zebra]

Each year, I work an 11U tournament at the end of their season. I do this to try to give back to the leagues and parents that gave me my start in officiating. It is often ugly and frustrating, but I'm compelled to do it out of loyalty.

That being said, I don't think scenarios and situations that occur at this level are the best cases for discussion on this forum. My perception is that the officials (and coaches and lurkers) that post and comment here are generally beyond that level of expertise. I try to keep the audience in mind when I comment or ask questions.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

That being said, I don't think scenarios and situations that occur at this level are the best cases for discussion on this forum. My perception is that the officials (and coaches and lurkers) that post and comment here are generally beyond that level of expertise. I try to keep the audience in mind when I comment or ask questions.

They might not be the best scenarios, but I wouldn't ever say they don't have a place here -- just as long as we get the right frame of reference as to what perspective the question is coming from.

Remember that even if kid rec leagues have things like no pressing in the back court, the majority of them still are grounded in NFHS rules. Who knows those best? Largely the ladies and gentlemen of this board who have postings in the four digits (or three or two or one ...)

So while I wouldn't want to see this board overtaken by the kid (or adult) rec-league questions, they have a place. Just as they did in the development of every official who ever pulled on the stripes. Besides, remember what they always say: If some crazy, rulebook-testing scenario is going to happen, it will occur at these lower levels -- and that's perfect for readying oneself for a bigger stage.

[JRutledge]

Anytime there are no banners being hung on the wall or ceiling for winning something, the level of importance should drop.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Anytime there are no banners being hung on the wall or ceiling for winning something, the level of importance should drop.

Peace

We all see things through different eyes. I can have a varsity game go down to the wire and, while it's fun to work a game like that, it doesn't raise my BP or heart rate like it did 15 years ago. It's just another game and I have no vested interest in the outcome, other than I want to make the proper calls and call the game the right way. No different than any other game.

As a parent of a young child (she's 4), I cannot imagine any game she plays before high school having any meaning other than "is she having fun" and "is she getting good exercise and learning how to be a good teammate." It's why I don't work games involving small kids, cause I wouldn't hesitate to tell parents screaming about calls to "get a life" at times when it was needed (or I'd have them removed, which is even sadder).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

We all see things through different eyes. I can have a varsity game go down to the wire and, while it's fun to work a game like that, it doesn't raise my BP or heart rate like it did 15 years ago. It's just another game and I have no vested interest in the outcome, other than I want to make the proper calls and call the game the right way. No different than any other game.

If I am going to spend my spare time working a game I am going to attempt to have fun in that contest. When it stops becoming fun I will stop working those games. That is why I do not work anything below high school anymore, because it started to not be fun anymore with the parents and coaches. This is just a sport, not a life or death activity. Kids will not likely remember what they did 20 years from now at that level. The only time they recognized that activity is when they are in high school because it is such a right of passage time of their life. I could not tell you a single game when I was in middle school or before and I could not tell you who was on the teams without looking at a year book (If I can find one). These kids are usually more concerned with where they are going to get ice cream after the game than how many points and assists they had playing what is only a game.

Peace

[Forksref]

I've done basketball for over 30 years. I consider myself semi-retired from it because I have chosen to do mostly JH games. I am really enjoying this year, helping the young kids and coaches. I get satisfaction from knowing I have done a good job and that I am filling a big need. Sometimes I get frustrated at having to deal with such a low level of ability (turnovers, etc.) but I get through the game and realize why I am out there. At the same time, I am helping some rookie officials and that is satisfying too. It's amazing how much we take for granted that young officials don't know.

Although I try to consider each game a "big" game for the kids, I also know that the number one reason that kids play sports at these levels is to have fun (born out by several studies that I have read). Unfortunately, parents and some coaches see winning as the most important thing. You'd be surprised the number of grandparents that attend these games and they seem to be happy simply by seeing their grandkids play.

I've had to deal with wild coaches and disrespectful players but not very often, especially when they see that I won't put up with it. (3 T's this year) I know that the coach that I T'd learned from it because he came up after the game and apologized. Overall, the players and coaches at this level have been really fun to work with.

Everyone has their niche and it may change with time.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I am going to spend my spare time working a game I am going to attempt to have fun in that contest. When it stops becoming fun I will stop working those games. That is why I do not work anything below high school anymore, because it started to not be fun anymore with the parents and coaches. This is just a sport, not a life or death activity. Kids will not likely remember what they did 20 years from now at that level. The only time they recognized that activity is when they are in high school because it is such a right of passage time of their life. I could not tell you a single game when I was in middle school or before and I could not tell you who was on the teams without looking at a year book (If I can find one). These kids are usually more concerned with where they are going to get ice cream after the game than how many points and assists they had playing what is only a game.

Peace

I was working a great game last week and a guy working security in the corner came up to me and chatted with me during a timeout. I thought this was kind of odd, but I quickly realized it was the principal. He had a huge smile on his face and said, "Isn't this game fun, just what high school sports should be about. Doesn't matter the outcome, it's a great game!"

His team was losing, BTW. And lost a few minutes later. I'm willing to bet he still saw it as a great game. As did I.